Wakizashi Certified MASASHIGE (Mumei)

[kaliatur]

Hi people,

 

I need an expert opinion about an ebay offert.

I am a beginner collector ans I find this offert with famous smith and an amazing sayagaki certification (Dr Kanzan certified it as Muramasa)

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MURAMASA-NBTHK-Certified-MASASHIGE-16thC-Muromachi-Japan-Antique-Wakizashi/274621774981?hash=item3ff0bbbc85:g:ZiIAAOSwdhNf4XGg

 

Ok, the blade is not perfect and very beautiful BUT only hozon certificate ? why ? I expect rather a Tokubetsu Hozon ? These great blade is not normally more expensive?

 

Is this blade really worth it ?

 

Thanks for your knowledge

[b.hennick]

This bothers me. Maybe that is why it is so inexpensive.

[Mark S.]

Can't tell how polished down the blade is and I was going to point out the 'flaw' as previously mentioned.  They obviously felt the need to highlight it.

[Gakusee]

Mumei Muromachi does not get to TH. 
It is currently  believed to be Masashige and not Muramasa. They are both very close but the student had bigger hamon and larger nie on average. 
Still, the price is low. 

[kaliatur]

agree,

10 minutes ago, b.hennick said:

This bothers me. Maybe that is why it is so inexpensive.

I saw it, effectively a very bad impact...

[O koumori]

I have one of these – mumei, attributed to Sengo Masashige. NTHK papered to 2^nd generation (the one supposed to be Muramasa’s grandson). The jihada on mine looks a bit more pronounced than the one for sale, , and the hamon is different, but the sugata matches well.

 

 

  

  

 

 

As already stated,  I’d be wary of the flaw…

Dan

[Wolfmanreid]

Apologies for my ignorance but what would cause a flaw like that?  

[16k]

Has the picture with the flaw been removed? I can’t see it in the pictures listing...

[ROKUJURO]

5 hours ago, Wolfmanreid said:

....... what would cause a flaw like that?  

Reid,

the picture is not very clear, at least to me. I have the impression that there is a crack in the MUNE area, so not a HAGIRE. Usually the construction of a blade is done in a way that you have a softer, more flexible back and a hard edge. If you protect yourself against a heavy blow of an opponent, you should be able to do so with the back of your blade. This should not cause damage to your blade with probably the exception of a KIRIKOMI.

When a crack like this appears, there have likely been inner tensions in the blade. These could result from an unbalanced composition of hard and more flexible components in the early forging stages, or from the hardening (and annealing = YAKIMODOSHI) process, but could as well be caused by an impact in use. In this case, I could imagine that a hacking blow with this blade meant too much stress for the (too hard) MUNE area. 
Basically, such a KIZU will have to be related with high probabilty to a fault in the production of the blade.  

[kaliatur]

55 minutes ago, 16k said:

Has the picture with the flaw been removed? I can’t see it in the pictures listing...

 

[16k]

2 hours ago, kaliatur said:

 

Thank you, but this picture is on NMB. I’ve checked the original eBay listing and that one doesn’t show for me.

 

As for the flaw, and although that usually look a bit different, could this be a Shinae?

[Gakusee]

53 minutes ago, 16k said:

Thank you, but this picture is on NMB. I’ve checked the original eBay listing and that one doesn’t show for me.

 

As for the flow, and although that usually look a bit different, could this be a Shinae?

Same, JP, I could not see this shinae in the EBay listing. The blade might have been bent and then straightened or something at some point. 

[Wayben]

The picture is still there in the item description.  The seller is only allowed to put 12 pictures in the area at the top of the listing.  Some sellers add more photos in the description area.

[b.hennick]

When I tried to download the photo, it was part of a long strip of images. I  cut it out of the strip so that I could post it here. As for shinae I  have only seen a group of creases caused by bending the blade never a single crease if that is what it is. Everyone has different tolerances for flaws. This is one that I would not accept. Others will have different opinions.

[16k]

That’s why I said it looked unusual for a shinae, Barry. I even wonder if this might not be some sort of blister.

[Mark S.]

So at first I thought it was a single crack that starts at the mune (notice the small v-shaped ding in the edge of mune) but as I look at it more, there is a second ding a little to the right and the whole area looks like it is defined by a u-shaped line connecting the two dings.  Really hard to tell from the photo.

[b.hennick]

The blade appears to be on a blue towel. When enlarged the thing that you see appears to be part of the towel. Consider that if you  own the blade, it will always have discussions like this. 

[kaliatur]

I asked the seller about this flaw and his answer is : "yes, it is fine crack. but not Hagire."

Ok I understand this is "the price to pay" for this kind a famous crafted sword, in this case the price is low due to flaw...

 

Another question : How to know if the writings  of sayagaki is really true? (kanji look good) . Is it possible to swap the sword in sayagaki ? a sword that matches the description for exemple?

 

And for information, how much do you estimate this kind of blade without the flaw?

 

@Dan how much do you paid for your blade?

 

Thanks

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by kaliatur

[Ken-Hawaii]

It's definitely possible to to swap a cheap blade into a sayagaki. I've seen that done several times.

 

Geoff, the value of any blade is what the buyer will pay.

[Toryu2020]

If you're concerned the blade has been switched ask the seller for exact measurements do these then match what is listed on the saya?

-t

[Mark S.]

Don’t think blade was switched... NBTHK just gave a more conservative attribution, albeit along the same lines,  than Dr Kanzan.  The flaw and conservative NBTHK attribution may be why the previous owner did not try beyond the Hozon certificate.

[Mark S.]

For those who know $$$ better than I... would be interested to see range of current price estimates based on presented blade:

 

If it was a...
Muramasa no flaw: $???

Muramasa with flaw: $???

Masashige no flaw: $???

Masashige.with flaw: $???

 

[hxv]

https://www.nihonto.com/11-3-17/

 

Hoanh

[O koumori]

Geoffroy, please PM me about my blade.

 

BTW, Ricecracker.com has a papered  mumei Muramasa tanto for  sale for $17k US.

 

Dan

[kaliatur]

I've got new pictures from the seller.

 

I think the price is too high (7000$)

[Brian]

I think that's possibly a large fukure waiting to open.

[Shugyosha]

I think you don’t want to own a blade with that kind of problem. $7k adds up to a pretty decent blade without the potential buyers’ remorse. 

[kaliatur]

definitely a bad investment...

 

thanks to everyone for allowing me to see more clearly (and don't make a mistake) 

[kodachi]

Yes, there is a NTHK papered Muramasa nidai tanto on "ricecracker.com"

But there might be a reason, why this tanto was sold not for 17000 but for much less, just for a fraction, in the past at "nihonto.us" 

You still can find the description: http://nihonto.us/MURAMASA TANTO - NIDAI.htm

Best