Emergency Late War Officer Gunto

[Dave R]

On 9/23/2021 at 3:33 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Found by Thomas @Kiipu from a Gunboards Post.  Note the absence of even the hole for a sarute!

 

 

Also lacks visible means of attachment to the Tsuka.  Very poor build quality, so I would say "not made by a Japanese".

[Stegel]

Any one notice that they all have the same shaped/style tsuba?

both brass and steel as materials are present.

Nick K posted a document with a similar looking tsuba in the type 95 thread. It was the announcement for the removal of the tassel mounting hole and also the introduction of the leather tassel 'without' the buckle, as used on all 'non- brass' tsuba type 95's.

Essentially this was a contingency 'Rinji' announcement.

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Stegel said:

Nick K posted a document with a similar looking tsuba in the type 95 thread.

Any chance of finding a link to that, Ernie?

[Stegel]

13 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Any chance of finding a link to that, Ernie?

You can find the link here

 

Now it is only a drawing, and no real details are available except that the slot for the tassel mount is omitted.

None have ever been seen on type 95's, in fact the replacement was the round 'steel' tsuba from Pattern 3 onwards.

 

The actual link between this announcement and the tsubas on this thread is fairly weak, but these here are thinner, have the same shape and no slots for mounting tassels.

 

I just thought it was worth noting and keeping in mind when looking at some of these, and wanted to share the idea around.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

5 minutes ago, Stegel said:

these here are thinner, have the same shape and no slots for mounting tassels.

Wow, Erns, I see what you mean!  Sort of supports the posted tsuba as legit Japanese.  Even if a faked copy, that still means the COPIED a legit Japanese design.

 

Here's the posted chart from Nick Komiya:

[Bruce Pennington]

Another one currently at a Sofe Auction:

 

[brannow]

I Have a couple that I bought out of the woodwork years ago that are like the one that started the thread and believe them to be legitimate.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, brannow said:

I Have a couple that I bought out of the woodwork years ago that are like the one that started the thread and believe them to be legitimate.

 

 

If you have the time, I'd love to see some pics.

[brannow]

I think I have posted them in the past.  If not I might have to retake pics.

 

 

[Kiipu]

On 12/14/2021 at 7:59 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Another one currently at a Sofe Auction:

 

This seems to be a variant of the plain brass Chinese version; however, the menuki is of a different style than the others that are pictured on the various forums.  The small differences that appear in these Chinese versions could indicate production from more than one location?  The survival rate seems high and this would seem to indicate a decent amount of them were manufactured during the war.  Several have direct connections to veterans that brought them back.

Another unusual sword

 

Quote

This is one of the poorly made swords likely made as replacements. I have owned several of these and all have had the identical silver tsuba and poorly shaped tangs. All of the ones that I veteran purchased were found in China. I have always thought that these were made in theatre and were to serve a purpose until a proper replacement could be had. None of the ones I have ever handled have any temper in the blade. This is a model sword rarely encountered. Most collectors have looked at them as being fakes but in my opinion, they are just poorly made swords.

ww2 sword?, Post #18

Edited January 8, 2022 by Kiipu

[Kiipu]

And another one that I ran into by accident over at SFI, it appears to be the plain version that I associate with Chinese use.

Japanese samurai sword ???

[Kiipu]

On 10/22/2021 at 10:52 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

There is an interesting gunto posted ON THIS RUSSIAN SITE, that I think is original.  Dated Feb 1945, it has poor quality Type 98 tsuka/tsuba, but really poor quality RS saya, black painted.

 

I have been working on this one for awhile and today I finally closed the books on it.  The maker is Yoshitada 義忠 and I think he hails from Gifu Prefecture.  I base this on one that has a small Seki 関 stamp that is for sale on eBay.

WWII Japanese Army officer's samurai sword shin gunto Untouched Mint WW2

@mecox

[Bruce Pennington]

Found one of the 'standard' late-war kabutogane on this frankenstein:

 

Could be a pieced-together very late war gunto, or just a Bubba-job post war.  It's missing a tsuba, but he seppa has what's left of a leather retention strap:

so it would imply the wooden saya came with the sword.  Making it worse, though, is the blade is a Showa-stamped Yoshimitsu. 

The Showa stamp died off by 1942, so if this was a late-war monster, the blade would have had a re-fit at the end of the war.

[John C]

Bruce:

Could this be a variation of a late war emergency stamp?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/295367094149?hash=item44c5402f85%3Ag%3AFYQAAOSwGvZjgUs0&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoE2vtf1G0e6%2BYCRzQdr5e1FQNMgrEltgGeArcOmW7ZbSnRt2aUALk6H6UmPegZB3KZaTm9VpsjRGd%2BJcf9Bp8DOQiviWJgLA%2BQsAEM5XixxkYgVQ0IXqhjD%2FMWgB%2FzNRiGrMzBRb4VmyPhekf5%2BHOvMmhmIHPntWMq4xGMKSBBBjYDx6lZyE7fjUZxHj0%2FF%2BtKq6H3IjPf5QJygz0VMdhI4%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8iMk-iYYQ&LH_ItemCondition=4|10

 

John C.

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, John C said:

Bruce:

Could this be a variation of a late war emergency stamp?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/295367094149?hash=item44c5402f85%3Ag%3AFYQAAOSwGvZjgUs0&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoE2vtf1G0e6%2BYCRzQdr5e1FQNMgrEltgGeArcOmW7ZbSnRt2aUALk6H6UmPegZB3KZaTm9VpsjRGd%2BJcf9Bp8DOQiviWJgLA%2BQsAEM5XixxkYgVQ0IXqhjD%2FMWgB%2FzNRiGrMzBRb4VmyPhekf5%2BHOvMmhmIHPntWMq4xGMKSBBBjYDx6lZyE7fjUZxHj0%2FF%2BtKq6H3IjPf5QJygz0VMdhI4%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8iMk-iYYQ&LH_ItemCondition=4|10

 

John C.

upside down 順

 

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, John C said:

variation of a late war emergency stamp?

I see the vague similarity:

The pictures aren't great on that sword, but I'd bet it's an occupied territory sword.

 

10 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

upside down 順

Trystan, any idea of meaning or significance?

[BANGBANGSAN]

24 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

upside down 順

Trystan, any idea of meaning or significance?

Success/Well/Smooth

[Bruce Pennington]

We are starting to see a small collection of stamps on these collaborator swords.  No way to know if they are each from a smith, or a shop/forge.  In the old days, I would have said they are simply random Chinese kanji to imitate Japanese markings.  But I think the forge idea is shaping up to be the case.

[Dave R]

On 11/7/2022 at 2:27 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Found one of the 'standard' late-war kabutogane on this frankenstein:

 

Could be a pieced-together very late war gunto, or just a Bubba-job post war.  It's missing a tsuba, but he seppa has what's left of a leather retention strap:

so it would imply the wooden saya came with the sword.  Making it worse, though, is the blade is a Showa-stamped Yoshimitsu. 

The Showa stamp died off by 1942, so if this was a late-war monster, the blade would have had a re-fit at the end of the war.

 

 Just to say that from the Japanese perspective 1942 is "very late war" to quote...   "The beginning of the war is conventionally dated to the Marco Polo Bridge Incident on 7 July 1937, when a dispute between Japanese and Chinese troops in Peking escalated into a full-scale invasion. Some Chinese historians believe that the Japanese invasion of Manchuria on 18 September 1931 marks the start of the war. This full-scale war between the Chinese and the Empire of Japan is often regarded as the beginning of World War II in Asia."   .....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War    It was the wartime shortages of needed resources that drove Japan to war with the US and UK in 1941, primarily oil, but also steel and other materials. Nicely summed up by this US propaganda leaflet dropped on Japan.

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, Dave R said:

from the Japanese perspective 1942 is "very late war"

Yes.  When you read their stories/book of WWII, it was an 8 year war for them!  It's interesting that several changes started occurring in '42/'43 like manufacturing regulations, SMR changed their mei, and even inspector stamping procedures.  I think the term is used mostly, in Sword-World, though to denote the dramatic changes we see in swords of the final year of the war.

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington

Here is an interesting one,長江興亜刀 Yangtze River Koa sword,青柳五郎作 Gorou Aoyagi Saku.
I think it's could be a Japanese swordsmith or IJA Gunto repair team member who made this sword at the location near the Yangtze River in China during ww2.
The fitting is very similar to an territory/island swords I've seen before.

 

 

This is the territory/island sword that I mentioned. Nothing on both sides of the tang.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

長江興亜刀 Yangtze River Koa sword,

That's quite a fascinating mei, Trystan!  Any idea what it is trying to say?  Was it part of a group taking a Yangtze river area for the "United Asia" effort?

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's one with the standard late-war kabutonage.  Braxtons Auction- Hibid

[Dave R]

19 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Here's one with the standard late-war kabutonage.  Braxtons Auction- Hibid

 

 I think that is one of the Chinese made swords. This is one of my late war examples from Japan.

[Dave R]

... Here is another... which looks perfectly standard, til you use a magnet and find all the metal is stamped iron or steel and plated to look regulation..

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Dave R said:

Chinese made

I think you're right.  Purple'ish same', poor wrap, and long thin sarute.

[Bridges]

@Bruce Penningtonnice read, I would get this easily confused with a fake due to the poor quality

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Bridges said:

I would get this easily confused with a fake due to the poor quality

And that has been what's plagued this 'genre' of sword for so long.  The quality of the Chinese territory and 'island made' swords was so poor compared to mainland Japan, that they are near impossible to distinguish from the modern fakes.  But we have been discovering documents (thanks to Kiipu and Bangbangsan) showing swords were being made 'over there' and we're building some experience in spotting them.  

[vajo]

Found that in the Nihonto Collector Group in Facebook.

I told the owner to ask here in the board. Could that be a island sword? What you think?

The sword is rough made with improvised cast fittings.

 

He said it is a family heirloom from his uncle who had it from a Japanese officer in guinea.

It's obvious not Japanese made but it looks not like the typical chinese made repros.

The ito looks like made from stripes of cloth, a blue jacket or trousers.

The same is iguana or something else.

 

 

[Brian]

I saw the FB post. The fittings are crudely cast, with not much effort made to replicate originals.
I vote a roughly made island sword, maybe made in the occupied territories. It's not a modern fake, but maybe even made just after the war for sale to soldiers?