Emergency Late War Officer Gunto

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

leatherette."  Is this an accurate description of the composition?

I would be interested to hear from people that on these concerning that question too. I have one that I thought was a Chinese fake, but after reading this it might be what you were talking about. I don’t have it in hand right now, but when I can get to it I will take some photographs and post it.

[Kiipu]

Since posting, I have learned that the word leatherette could just mean "fake leather."

Artificial leather

 

However, in the context of World War II, the 2014 post could also be referring to what is called presstoff (also preßstoff or pressstoff).

Presstoff

 

The Japanese developed a saya (scabbard) cover made out of paper during the war too.

Pressed-paper Saya Cover

 

Hopefully, BangBangSan will also look into what the Chinese character(s) are and see if something like this was used in China during Word War II.

 

[Dave R]

 What does the K mean then?

 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Dave R said:

 What does the K mean then?

 

Never seen it before, I was hoping YOU knew!

[BANGBANGSAN]

3 hours ago, Dave R said:

 What does the K mean then?

 

Is it possible the K is for Kaneshiro Sakuganki Seizo 金城鑿岩機製造 same as the company  made Type 30 bayonet?

 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

K is for Kaneshiro Sakuganki Seizo 金城鑿岩機製造

Thanks Trystan!  Unless anyone has something better, I’d put that in the “possibly” to “likely” range.

 

Do you know where they were located?

[BANGBANGSAN]

4 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Trystan!  Unless anyone has something better, I’d put that in the “possibly” to “likely” range.

 

Do you know where they were located?

Nagoya

[Bruce Pennington]

6 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Nagoya

Welllllllll ..... that conflicts with the idea of these being made in China,  UNLESS, like Nick pointed out, they moved their operations to China due to the bombing.

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Welllllllll ..... that conflicts with the idea of these being made in China,  UNLESS, like Nick pointed out, they moved their operations to China due to the bombing.

I thought we were talking about that K mark in the star, that blade says 刀劍鋼（Steel for sword).Not the 應 blade。I don't think that sword  was made in China at all.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

15 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

I don't think that sword  was made in China at all.

Probably right.  Stegel probably included this in his post thinking it was one of the Emergency stamped blades, but it's not, as we can see now.  Glad we were able to toss it around, though.  Got another stamp for the Stamps Doc with a "possible" shop name!  Thanks Trystan!

[Dave R]

9 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Nagoya

 

 Using a reverse image search I tracked this back to a conversation on Gunboards in 2014   https://www.gunboards.com/threads/late-war-shin-gunto-or-post-war-tourist-copy.356639/   and of course all the photo's and links are dead, but ended at Ebay....

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

4 hours ago, Dave R said:

 

 Using a reverse image search I tracked this back to a conversation on Gunboards in 2014   https://www.gunboards.com/threads/late-war-shin-gunto-or-post-war-tourist-copy.356639/   and of course all the photo's and links are dead, but ended at Ebay....

 

Dave

I'm sorry for the confusing,I mean Kaneshiro Sakuganki Seizo 金城鑿岩機製造 is located in Nagoyo.

Most of photos in that post it's gone,only few photos of the Chinese made sword with 應 mark .I'm  talking about the swords with 刀劍鋼（Steel for sword) and the K in the star mark.

[BANGBANGSAN]

18 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Trystan!  Unless anyone has something better, I’d put that in the “possibly” to “likely” range.

 

Do you know where they were located?

Bruce

I'm sorry for the confusing,I mean Kaneshiro Sakuganki Seizo 金城鑿岩機製造 is located in Nagoyo.

[Dave R]

1 hour ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Dave

I'm sorry for the confusing,I mean Kaneshiro Sakuganki Seizo 金城鑿岩機製造 is located in Nagoyo.

Most of photos in that post it's gone,only few photos of the Chinese made sword with 應 mark .I'm  talking about the swords with 刀劍鋼（Steel for sword) and the K in the star mark.

 

Do you know what the mounts were like,any photo's? You see, it's so rare to see numbers, stamps and writing on a Japanese sword blade, issue swords excepted, and so common to see the same on Chines blades of any age.

 Military Dadao are quite often marked up om the blade. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

5 hours ago, Dave R said:

 

Do you know what the mounts were like,any photo's? You see, it's so rare to see numbers, stamps and writing on a Japanese sword blade, issue swords excepted, and so common to see the same on Chines blades of any age.

 Military Dadao are quite often marked up om the blade. 

Dave

I do not have any photo of that sword. I just translate the Kanji on that blade Stegel posted. And I noticed the similarity between the other mark on it and the KK mark on the Type 30 bayonet since Bruce asks about it.
I always agree with the 應 marked blades were made in China for the puppet government. Collectors in China called those swords 偽軍刀 .Note,Is 偽軍-刀（Puppet Army Sword), not 偽-軍刀(Fake Gunto).

[Shamsy]

9 hours ago, Dave R said:

 

 Using a reverse image search I tracked this back to a conversation on Gunboards in 2014   https://www.gunboards.com/threads/late-war-shin-gunto-or-post-war-tourist-copy.356639/   and of course all the photo's and links are dead, but ended at Ebay....

 

 

Good job, Dave.  That's the gunboard thread I mentioned in my earlier comment.

 

I tend to believe that these are Chinese made swords, for collaboration forces and maybe Japanese officers in need...?

 

On 1/16/2021 at 11:11 AM, Kiipu said:

Since posting, I have learned that the word leatherette could just mean "fake leather."

Artificial leather

 

However, in the context of World War II, the 2014 post could also be referring to what is called presstoff (also preßstoff or pressstoff).

Presstoff

 

The Japanese developed a saya (scabbard) cover made out of paper during the war too.

Pressed-paper Saya Cover

 

Hopefully, BangBangSan will also look into what the Chinese character(s) are and see if something like this was used in China during Word War II.

 

 

I enjoyed reading this, Thomas. I have a couple of swords with what I believe is artificial leather of some kind on the saya. They look similar to the presstoff.

[Kiipu]

This is where I downloaded the picture in my files.  It was posted back in 2015.  Possibly this is one of the sources of the picture.

Arsenal Stamps.

[Bruce Pennington]

19 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

This is where I downloaded the picture in my files.  It was posted back in 2015.  Possibly this is one of the sources of the picture.

Arsenal Stamps.

That's a good link, as George Trotter commented that the quality of the fittings look good and the blade too (for a gunto).  So, fairly confirms it wasn't a Chinese made emergency sword.

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 1/17/2021 at 12:11 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

I thought we were talking about that K mark in the star, that blade says 刀劍鋼（Steel for sword).Not the 應 blade。I don't think that sword  was made in China at all.

 

Found something about the 刀劍鋼 http://ohmura-study.net/791.html

 

[Bruce Pennington]

50 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Found something

Can you tell us what it says?

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Can you tell us what it says?

This page from Ohmura mentioned Type 95 used Army standard sword steel(刀劒鋼) and has some main ingredients and impurities date of the sword steel. 

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

standard sword steel(刀劒鋼)

This is an interesting subject by itself.  I'm seeing a variety of ways to mention the type of steel used in a blade by various smiths.  Some are written out on the nakago.  Some use stamps.  This one is actually on the blade.  I'm not aware of an edict requiring such mention (or else they all would do it), so there must be some sort of pride in the local steel used, like a marketing statement.  "Buy my sword, it's made of Yasugi Steel!"  That sort of thing.

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 1/16/2021 at 3:45 AM, Kiipu said:

 

The source of the second picture can be found at the same 2014 GBF thread above.  See post #7 by Stegel.  Direct link below.

Late War Shin Gunto, or post war tourist copy???

Thomas

Just a thought about the "治" mark Gunto. Many countries call the period under Japanese rule during WW2 日治時期，including 台灣（TaiWan)，新加坡(Singapore)，馬來西亞(Malaysia)and 印度尼西亞(Indonesia)etc.
Is it possible the 治  could be the abbreviation 統治（Ruling）instead of 明治（Meiji) for the arsenal in occupied countries?Or even means the sword for 治安隊（public security force）use？

[Kiipu]

4 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Just a thought about the "治" mark Gunto. Many countries call the period under Japanese rule during WW2 日治時期, including 台灣 (TaiWan), 新加坡(Singapore), 馬來西亞 (Malaysia) and 印度尼西亞 (Indonesia) etc.
Is it possible the 治  could be the abbreviation 統治 (Ruling) instead of 明治 (Meiji) for the arsenal in occupied countries? Or even means the sword for 治安隊 (public security force) use?

 

I am only aware of two examples of the 治-guntō.  One of the two was found in the Netherlands.  I think more examples would be needed for study to determine if they are real or reproductions.  In regards to the markings, I agree that 治 is not an abbreviation for 明治.  The Japanese would use 明 and not 治.  It is hard to say at this time exactly what the meaning of the 治 character is.  Me thinks Trystan needs to find one and show us many pictures of it!

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Thomas

Just a thought about the "治" mark Gunto. Many countries call the period under Japanese rule during WW2 日治時期，including 台灣（TaiWan)，新加坡(Singapore)，馬來西亞(Malaysia)and 印度尼西亞(Indonesia)etc.
Is it possible the 治  could be the abbreviation 統治（Ruling）instead of 明治（Meiji) for the arsenal in occupied countries?Or even means the sword for 治安隊（public security force）use？

 

 

Trystan,

Forgive me if I've seen this before, but I don't recall if I did - what are these stamps and numbers on?  Looks like some "occupied lands" swords?

[BANGBANGSAN]

9 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Trystan,

Forgive me if I've seen this before, but I don't recall if I did - what are these stamps and numbers on?  Looks like some "occupied lands" swords?

Here you go

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/woii-katana-help-discovering-if-authentic-what-type-475051/

[Bruce Pennington]

Another found by 26Intrepid, HERE at Warrelics.  Seems to have cosmoline on the blade, though it could just be old, dirty grease.

[Bruce Pennington]

Found by Thomas @Kiipu from a Gunboards Post.  Note the absence of even the hole for a sarute!

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

There is an interesting gunto posted ON THIS RUSSIAN SITE, that I think is original.  Dated Feb 1945, it has poor quality Type 98 tsuka/tsuba, but really poor quality RS saya, black painted.  My first thought was pieced together, post war, but the really poor RS saya along with the low quality 98 fittings really strike me as emergency late-war rush-job work. 

 

I realize that the multiple holes in the nakago means the blade was re-fitted at least once.  So it likely began it's life in Rinji seishiki fittings and was re-fitted with the Type 98 tsuka/tsuba set.

What is puzzling is why there would be 2 holes at the end of the nakago.  Type 98 tsuka only need one hole.  Rinji tsuka use 2.  So  why the extra hole at the end?  

I still think it was all WWII original, but definitely some refitting happened in it's short life.

[Bruce Pennington]

Asking the owner of this one on THIS Wehrmacht-Awards thread for some better pics.  I'll update if I get them.  Comes from a grouping from a passed-on Marine who collected them on Saipan.  The owner knew him personally.

 

 

After getting a better look, though, this may be a civil sword refitted for the war, and not a late-war Army gunto.  I'll update or delete depending upon what he gives us.