Ichimonji and/or Fukuoka Koretsugu Papered sword on ebay WOW

[shan]

Hi all,

What do you make of these claims about Kentaisho attribution to Den and this sword and this sellers claims in general?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WAKIZASHI-KATANA-TANTO-tsuba-fuchi-ashira_W0QQitemZ320320981916

 

£9000.

But "This is because this work has been classed as historically very valuable and can even achieve Jo-Saku papers with ware"

 

Your views please gentlemen.

shan

[Hermes]

The link is not working?

[Stephen]

how about the US one?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 26_fvi%3D1

[pcfarrar]

For £9,000 you could buy the Ichimonji wak from Stephens sale list. Koretsugu is far from the "best shinto smith" as the seller states.

[shan]

HI,

I thought that the Prefix DEN meant that it was in the style of and possibly of the school but not the smith or period of the smith.

I also wonder if the NTHK kanteisho could place such a massive value on an item.

It has ware as stated.

I have seen this seller list before for rediculous start prices and although probably a collector/dealer are totally unrealistic in there expectations and just a little subjective in their assumptions on attributions.

shan

[DirkO]

If I'm not mistaken, den means that it has some additional traits on top of the expected traits for this smith. It was covered on this forum not so long ago, but I can't find where...

[Nobody]

If I'm not mistaken, den means that it has some additional traits on top of the expected traits for this smith. It was covered on this forum not so long ago, but I can't find where...

FYI; Den - What does it mean, tradition, school, derived from and teachings of? Or

http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/Den%20article.htm

[Brian]

http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/Den%20article.htm

Pretty much the definitive article on the use of "den"

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: Moriyama san....You beat me by 3 minutes

[DirkO]

Thanks guys, that was the article I had in mind It was referenced somewhere else here on the forum as well.

[shan]

Thanks for the link and info everyone,

Yes, that makes sense, but as the shinsa team never give any information on why exactly an item has been attributed to Den,It still leaves a lot of questions. :?

This particular sword in question Got Kantaisho in London ,it was not offered anything better or asked to be sent to Japan for further research.

I am fairly sure that Paul said nothing went over 75 points which is just out of a NBTHK HOZON.which comparably is around NTHK 76-77 points.

Another possibly simpler question is this.

Is His 70 point sword of the same monetary and collectable Value as my 70 point sword (more or less)?( i doubt it )

If the blade for sale on ebay was in New full polish and got Its 70 points and mine was 50% out of polish and had a carbon pocket but still got 70 Points, would that make my sword likely to get a better appraisal and score after its been polished?

would my sword (or indeed any sword who got 71pt or above)then have more financial value?

I wonder if Kanteisho ranking can elevate an ordinary Mumei wakizashi to such great Heights in monetary terms thats all.

But mostly i am wondering at the sellers grasp on reality and where the insurance figure came from (his Head?)

Regards

shan

[Jean]

I am fairly sure that Paul said nothing went over 75 points which is just out of a NBTHK HOZON.which comparably is around NTHK 76-77 points.

 

Shan,

 

Having seen quite a few blades, don't refer automatically to :

 

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/origcomp.htm

 

A sword which has passed Kanteisho at NTHK shall probably get an Hozon from NBTHK.

 

Criteria are not the same from an organization to the other, AFAIK, NBTHK has no scale (in points)

 

NTHK can be much more selective than NBTHK

 

I have seen many more juyo kanteisho than yushu kanteisho, but i won't deduce that NTHK is much more selective than NBTHK (commercial reasons interfere)

 

Hozon being the basic NBTHK kanteisho, if a sword is presented no lame duck), it will get a Hozon certificate without problem (even Shinto suriage mumeï)

 

I have seen an NTHK shinteisho upgraded to Kanteisho after polish so the scale does not mean so much

[paulb]

Shan,

At risk of becoming controversial which I have neither the time, interest or energy to do I think you need to remind yourself of what the papering system is aimed to do. First and foremost it is to attempt to confirm

a) the authentcity of something

b) whether it is worthy of preservation

The point sytem I think reflects the original quality the current condition and the rarity of the object. It is not intended to be a commercial ready reckoner. i.e. my 72 point sword is worth more than your 69 point sword. It purely relates to what they are seeing.

To confirm this just look at the price ranges between Juyo anf Tokubetsu Hozon. There are many swotrds with TH which command higher prices than Juyo. It depends who made it how highly they are rated and condition.

You mention about judges not explaining what they mean by den. this is because

a) they follow a standard form when papering which enables them to confirm their judgement the length and date of appraisal. The NTHK go one stage further in that if a sword fails they tell you what they think it is. They have neither the room or time to write a detailed appraisal. However if you require one I imagine some judges would give one for a price.

within a shinsa submission you are getting an opinion as to what something might be. Thats what you pay for. You are not paying for nor should you expect a complete commercial evaluation and explanation.

Debates about your sword with its carbon pocket vs another one with the same no. of points are meaningless. It is worth what the market will pay for it and any other conjecture is frankly wasting effort and time.

[Jean]

Paul wrote :

 

The NTHK go one stage further in that if a sword fails they tell you what they think it is. They have neither the room or time to write a detailed appraisal. However if you require one I imagine some judges would give one for a price.

 

In addition to Paul excellent remarks, I shall add that NTHK goes another stage further in giving an area (very usefull for late Muromachi blades when you have several smiths with the same name)

[shan]

Hi Paul,

Firstly i am not attacking the NTHK or NBTHK but everytime i try to fathom what the shinsa points system relates to everyone seems to go on the defensive.

I was advised to keep my original paperwork from shinsa because "its the only piece of paper you will have that has the points awarded and a 76 points kanteisho sword is better than a 70 point"

Now what i am trying to ascertain (and believe me i am not in the slightest bit worried about whether an item has monetry value or not) is if this sword on ebay that the seller believes is worth £9000+ is in fact any better than i offered to shinsa.

Well i have my answer as i have just been told it got 70 points(same as mine).

So the question was is it intrinsically judged by the shinsa teaqm to be of equal value as both have been judges 70`s?

If as you day they take into account rarety and workmanship and all of the other factors then are they saying that these are on balance of equal workmanship?

thats all.I know mine is never going to be worth £9000 but i cannot see what makes his worth that either.

Just trying to understand.

shan

[Jean]

Shan,

As you stated, points have no monetary value, so don't make any comparison between your sword and his.

 

As stated by Paul, school/smith/workmanship interfere in the monetary value.

 

I have seen koto Juyo at 2/3 the price of an Hozon Koyama Munetsugu or an Ishido Korekazu.

 

With NBTHK shinsa, you apply for a kanteisho level and you pay for it.

 

With NTHK, you apply for points, but here again, you won't get a Yushu kantesisho if the shinsa is not held in Japan (even if the sword is worth it)

 

An unpapered Masamune shall always have more monetary value than a Tokubetsu Juyo Bungo Takada.

 

If you want to know the value of your sword, it is easy : it is what people are ready to offer you for it, whatever the price. Due to MAC, I am thinking that all prices are going to decrease.

 

There is always a gap between what people think of their property and their real value market

 

As was stated in the Tosogu forum, you can almost have papered tsuba for the price of a loaf.

 

Everybody is welcome to read Darcy's article :

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/ratings.html

[shan]

HI all,

 

thankyou for you views

regards

shan

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

is if this sword on ebay that the seller believes is worth £9000+

 

In fact the seller tries to make us believe that this sword is a true Koretsugu and not just another smith of his school.

 

Seller is slick

[shan]

To Be honest,the seller is sugesting you google the actual smith and glean all the information you find, as relevent to his blade.His whole listing offers the sugestion that this is by the smith and has an insurance value of £12000 to £18000.

(........perhaps........)

I have seen a papered and signed blade by Koretsugu and IMHO the signed blade shows different qualities to the item listed on ebay.

http://www.samuraisword.com/nihontodisplay/Hozon/Koretsugu/index.htm

I think that even as "Den" it appears to my untrained eye to be "different" and not as well executed for something done by a "master of ichimonji choji",but that may be the polish.

Its also interesting to note that we are not offered the opportunity to see the Nakago for our potential £9000 stake.

I wish him the best of luck because its an optimistic price for a 70 pointer.

Regards

Shan

[Brian]

And just a reminder that we focus on the items here and not the prices so much Prices are set by the buyer. Too much, and it doesn't sell. That is indication enough. Let's focus on items please. We study swords..the prices are an unfortunate by-product for most of us

 

Brian

[shan]

Well said Brian and in an Ideal world....everything would be equal and we would never covet anothers items.

To have an item that cost £1000 and be told it was worth about £100 would be undesirable to most of us wouldn`t it?

We all want to pay a fair price for an item and (hopefully) iif we sell it on,make a little bit as well.

But i digress.

 

Can anyone see any similarities in the signed blade (link supplied) and the Ebay listed blade (also supplied)?

regards

Shan

[Brian]

It is what it is. Den Ishido Chikuzen Koretsugu. The papers say that, and that is what it is. Debating about whether it is by Koretsugu or his school isn't going to lead anywhere. It had some traits that made them go to den instead, and anything else is just guesswork. Why the debate about it? This isn't a place to pick a bone with someone about something. It's a lovely wakizashi. Buyers will decide if it is worth that or not.

 

Brian

[shan]

OK.

Thanks for the opinions.

So it is what it is and its worth what its worth.

Close and delete as you see fit Brian.