Smaller blades thread

[Bugyotsuji]

Here’s a question for peeps. Picked this up at a local bricabrac in Japan. Wooden body. Is it supposed to be an ancient Japanese chokutō, Korean or what?

14 cm overall, fits across the palm of the hand, thumb base to pinky base.

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Nice! Looks like a Chinese JIAN miniature to me, but I am no expert.

[Ed]

Just seeing this post.  I have a tiny little moroha tanto by Osafune Kiyomitsu. Approximately 3.5" nagasa and 5.5" overall.

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Ed,

that one looks amazingly stout! Must be a kind of YOROI DOSHI! What is the thickness?

[Brian]

3.5" Nagasa?
Wow..that sounds like a true miniature, something I'm crazy about. Lovely little blade Ed.
Awesome.

[EdWolf]

Lovely blade Ed. 

[Shuko]

Ed

 

I am quite willing to be the caretaker of this lovely blade if you need help looking after it. Beautiful.

[Ed]

Thanks for the positive comments guys. Have no idea what the intended function of this tiny blade was.  I found this in Japan many years ago and brought it home. 

 

Jean, I don't remember the kasane right off. I would have to dig it out of the vault to measure it. Being Moroha zukuri I wouldn't think it was a yoroi doshi, but again I do not know for sure it's intended function.

[Bugyotsuji]

Found this in a drawer. A copper yataté (worn through the obi like a netsuké and sagémono set, which illustrates the first post of this thread.) “Now you see it, now you don’t!”

 

 

Opened for brush calligraphy or sumi-e painting. (Two kozuka examples shown)

 

 

And how they pack away. The small ‘Kozuka’ for cutting paper, etc.

See partition inside hollow tube.

 

 

 

 

[John C]

  On 8/18/2024 at 2:38 PM, Bugyotsuji said:

A copper yataté

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Interesting. I have a very similar design in my collection.

John C.

[Bugyotsuji]

Here's a bit of a puzzle. This blade turned up at an antiques market, and the dealer insisted that it is legal. At first I thought it was one of those narrow-bladed Japanese saws, but this one has a straight edge. The blade has a sort of shinogi line on the side that is signed, and almost a kissaki, but is hira on the reverse. Quite light in the hand. Photos will follow.

 

The Mei looks to read 正, then a disfigured spot, and finally 久 (?). 

 

It has a wooden, worm-eaten handle, bound in rattan or bamboo of some kind. There is no evidence of a mekugi, but two or three small random iron pins that seem to be for fixing the binding, and no saya. 

 

Are we looking at a woodworking tool, or something for fish, or leather, or flower ceremony perhaps? Or a part of something else? All ideas welcome, (unless they are unwelcome).

 

Length overall 33 cm

Blade length from edge of grip, 22 cm

Blade width goes from 1.6 cm to 1.1 cm at tip.

There is almost no kasane, at 1.0 mm, or 0.1 cm

 

 

Tip

 

Mei

 

Kasane 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Piers,

a nice one! To me, this looks like a well-used fish knife (SASHIMI). I just bought one of these, not that old, but somewhat similar in shape. 

[Bugyotsuji]

  On 4/7/2025 at 8:28 AM, ROKUJURO said:

Piers,

a nice one! To me, this looks like a well-used fish knife (SASHIMI). I just bought one of these, not that old, but somewhat similar in shape. 

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Thanks Jean for the quick reply. Very interesting! Is yours pointed?

I have heard of sashimi-bocho 刺身包丁(Sashimi + Hocho) but never actually used one.

 

PS I have just found a couple of likely candidates under antiques and sashimi-bocho!  Breaking new ground for me!

骨董  and 刺身包丁

 

タコ引き刺身包丁 maybe for cutting up octopus... ! :eek: 

[Nobody]

Piers,

 

As you found, it looks like a takohiki.

Takohiki (蛸引) type is mainly used in Kanto area and yanagiba (柳刃) type is used in Kansai area. Both types are used to cut sashimi.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Ah, great illustration, Moriyama San! “We live and learn!”

Many thanks.

[ROKUJURO]

Yes, TAKOHIKI is the correct term! And indeed often used for octopus.

[Kiita]

  On 4/7/2025 at 8:46 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

Thanks Jean for the quick reply. Very interesting! Is yours pointed?

I have heard of sashimi-bocho 刺身包丁(Sashimi + Hocho) but never actually used one.

 

PS I have just found a couple of likely candidates under antiques and sashimi-bocho!  Breaking new ground for me!

骨董  and 刺身包丁

 

タコ引き刺身包丁 maybe for cutting up octopus... ! :eek: 

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I'm not totally convinced it's a takohiki, for the following reasons: It's very thin, most of them I've seen are around 3mm at the spine. It's possible it was sharpened down, but I would expect to see more of the original width remaining at the neck in that case. You said the ura side was flat if I'm not mistaken, and takohiki, like yanagiba and other traditional type sashimi knives, have hollow grinds on the ura side more or less always (searching hamaguri grind will get you some examples). The wrapped handle is atypical, normally on kitchen knives you see ho wood with either a smooth buffalo horn or metal ferrule, or plastic on postwar Showa period and later knives. In illustrations and prints from the Edo to Taisho periods I've kitchen knives with a very short section of wrapping, but only a few rows max. The reason for the preference for smooth handles is clear if you imagine trying to get fish slime out of the wrapping.

 

Is it laminated or monosteel? Usually sashimi knives are nimai laminated.

 

All of that said, it could very well simply be an atypical example of a takohiki, these things do vary.

[Bugyotsuji]

Thank you Aaron, for some more background information to chew on while I go back and look at it once more. 

[Kiita]

  On 4/8/2025 at 4:01 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

Thank you Aaron, for some more background information to chew on while I go back and look at it once more. 

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Looking through various sources, one additional possibility is a very well used 付け包丁. Kamaboko knife. Wrapping might be a later addition to strengthen a damaged handle.

 

Edited to add: This post on KKF has some examples of old style Japanese kitchen knives as depicted in woodblock prints for future reference

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/Japanese-web-info-list.55062/page-7#post-1080381

Edited Tuesday at 06:31 AM by Kiita
Additional info

[Bugyotsuji]

The back of the blade is mirror flat, with no discernable hollowing to it. As to the steel, it looks monosteel, though I am not confident as to what to look for. Is a traditional Japanese Nihonto a laminate blade?

As to the handle, I had a look and it is a single section of wood, with the blade set into it. Your idea of damage and remediary binding makes sense. There seem to be three bindings, mini-pinned at each end.

 

Interesting link. Thanks! (I think one is described as 刺身包刀 sashimi-boto, using the character 刀 instead of today's 丁 of 包丁 hocho.)

[Kiita]

  On 4/8/2025 at 7:03 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

The back of the blade is mirror flat, with no discernable hollowing to it. As to the steel, it looks monosteel, though I am not confident as to what to look for. Is a traditional Japanese Nihonto a laminate blade?

As to the handle, I had a look and it is a single section of wood, with the blade set into it. Your idea of damage and remediary binding makes sense. There seem to be three bindings, mini-pinned at each end.

 

Interesting link. Thanks! (I think one is described as 刺身包刀 sashimi-boto, using the character 刀 instead of today's 丁 of 包丁 hocho.)

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The attached diagram may be of use. Monosteel is western parlance for a solid steel blade with no hamon (if it had a hamon it would be called honyaki), not sure what the Japanese term is. If you can't see any lamination lines it's probably monosteel, though on old rusty steel like that knife it can be hard to tell. The easiest way to check is to try sharpening the kireha on a muddy water-stone like those reddish brown 1000 grit King brand ones that seem to be found so often in Japan as to be a tripping hazard, if it's laminated you'll see a contrast between the soft steel of the jigane and the hard steel of the hagane.

 

Traditional asymmetrical Japanese type kitchen knives like the one pictured are ni mai or two layer laminated, which is very rare on nihonto for obvious reason. San mai and warikomi are common to both kitchen knives and swords. Kobuse is also a form of lamination, and essentially warikomi in reverse, and is exclusive to swords.

 

Here's a good set of diagrams for sword lamination types:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/construction.html

 

[ROKUJURO]

  On 4/8/2025 at 7:24 AM, Kiita said:

.....Monosteel is western parlance for a solid steel blade with no hamon (if it had a hamon it would be called honyaki)....

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Hi Aaron,

you can have a HAMON on mono-steel knives.

You have to differentiate between a blade with a visible hard steel layer in the cutting edge (NI MAI like on KANNA blades), and a HAMON caused by differential hardening (mostly with a clay coating = TSUCHI OKI).

[ROKUJURO]

Piers,

your knife might well be a ground-down one of the TAKOHIKI type. There are so many variations in Japanese knife design!

I will show photos of my old TAKOHIKI as soon as I receive it. It seems to have a metal sleeve/ferrule, no buffalo horn. 

[Kiita]

  On 4/8/2025 at 7:39 AM, ROKUJURO said:

Hi Aaron,

you can have a HAMON on mono-steel knives.

You have to differentiate between a blade with a visible hard steel layer in the cutting edge (NI MAI like on KANNA blades), and a HAMON caused by differential hardening (mostly with a clay coating = TSUCHI OKI).

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That's what I meant, even if it perhaps wasn't clear from what I wrote. In my experience, while most modern honyaki knives are monosteel in that they are made from a single piece of solid steel, they're rarely referred to as such, as the differential hardening puts them in a category of their own. Monosteel is usually meant as referring to solid steel, through-hardened (fully hardened). This is a matter of semantics, and on some level subjective.

  On 4/8/2025 at 7:46 AM, ROKUJURO said:

I will show photos of my old TAKOHIKI as soon as I receive it. It seems to have a metal sleeve/ferrule, no buffalo horn. 

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The metal ferrule is common on older hocho, especially if they were not at the higher end pricewise when originally sold. 

[ROKUJURO]

Piers,

Here is my old TAKOHIKI which arrived only a few hours ago. NAGASA is 270 mm, width at the base is 21 mm, narrowing down at the square tip to 11 mm.
It is forged in NI MAI technique, with KIRIHA grind. The slim TSUKA has "blond" buffalo horn KAKUMAKI (sleeve).

The sloppy MEI could read something like SADAMITSU SAKU.

[Bugyotsuji]

Nice timing! Great, thanks.
Definitely some strong similarities there, Jean!