Uchikoshi Hirotoshi mei examples

[shan]

Hi all,

Does anyone have anything by Uchikoshi Hirotoshi that has an example of mei and work styles?

I can find nothing in my books or an the internet but you may well have a book that has an example.

Many thanks

Shan

[Curran]

Yes-

 

I do not follow these boards actively at present, but saw your message. I have a tsuba w/ Hozon papers to him.

Remind me to post it later today after work.

 

FYI- You will see examples in a variety of books, but he was a popular target for gimei. Many in the older books (museum collections and such) are considered gimei in comparison to Wakayama signatures. Some of them are good work, but maybe signed by his students?

 

Curran

[docliss]

Dear Shan

 

The Uchikoshi Horotoshi 'thing' has been previously done on the n.b. See Sun. Sept. 23, 2007.

 

John L.

[Curran]

Here is an image of mine, which has NBTHK Hozon papers.

 

As the doctor commented, this topic has come up before. I'd forgotten the previous thread he mentioned. What bothered me about that thread was that people posted examples, but it was my feeling that many of them would not be considered legit at shinsa.

 

Hirotoshi had quite a number of students and I sometimes wonder if the 'gimei' so often seen were works signed by students. Sometimes the designs are often very good and in keeping with the school. I've seen one of identical design to mine. The workmanship wasn't quite the same, but it was very decent and the signature relatively close. It made me think awful lot of work for what we call 'Gimei', but then Asian artist have often been capable of what some call "super fakes".

 

In the Baur Collection book there is a good genealogy of this school.

 

Curran

[shan]

Hi Curran,

Well the level of craftsmanship and the degree of work involved showed a certain "pride" in the workmans attitude.

Thats clearly a very nice Tsuba and quite rightly should have been offered to shinsa.

If i had one with that level of detail i would have done the same.(shinsa that is)

Did you ever find any variations that you thought may have been close but not close enough?

Have you seen the one i offered up for "approval" on my other post?

Is the level albeit lesser still of a good standard?

regards

shan

[docliss]

Shan may not be aware that there were two Uchikoshi artists who signed their work with the name of Hirotoshi. The first of these, and by far the most important (H 01415.0), was a student of Tamagawa Yoshinaga II and the founder of the Uchikoshi school. Curran has posted a beautiful, papered example of his work and his mei is illustrated on pp.383 and 384, a-d of Kinkō Meikan, where he is listed as Hidenaga. Haynes states that this artist used a seven-stroke variant of the ‘toshi’ kanji, but his mei is too stylized for me to be able to confirm this.

 

The second of these artists (H 01416.0) is also given the family name of Uchikoshi by Haynes, who states that ‘this artist does not seem to be, or even related to (sic)’ the above master. His mei is quite unlike the sōsho form of that on Curran’s tsuba, and uses the full, 14-stroke kanji for ‘toshi’.

 

There is a third artist, not listed by Haynes, who also used this name, but his work is quite unlike that of the Uchikoshi workers and is quite rustic in style. He uses the same kanji as the second artist, but the two mei are quite easily distinguished. There may well be further such unlisted artists.

 

There are photographs of the work of these latter two artists, together with their mei, on my previously referred-to posting.

 

John L.

[shan]

Hi John,

To be honest i am not expert enough in this area to judge if my Kanji is 14 strokes or what.

I am not even sure what i have (re my recent tsuba translation post).

It looks nice but thats the sum of my knowledge.

What do you think?

does it look like any of the artists you know signed this way or is it gimei in your opinion?

thanks

shan

[Ludolf Richter]

Hi!Here are some examples.Ludolf

[docliss]

I am sorry Shan, but I failed completely to link this thread with the one that you had previously posted in the Translation section. While in a far from ideal condition, this is a rather nice tsuba. The mei, as stated, is HIROTOSHI with kao, and this is not the mei of the Uchikoshi master although, like his, it is in a ‘running script’. There has been no attempt to mimic the latter’s mei, and the kao is quite distinct from his.

 

Your tsuba may well be Uchikoshi work, but I suggest that this is not a gimei signature, and is either by yet another Uchikoshi artist of that name, or by a student of the master. Since you ask, the circular form at the bottom left of the ‘toshi’ kanji suggests to me that this is a sosho form of the 14-stroke kanji.

 

John L.

[Curran]

Shan and Doctor John,

 

I think I owe John an apology in that I did not go back and re-read the entire previous discussion on this topic from September. I had not realized he'd posted information about others signing Hirotoshi. He sounds to have done a good bit more study in this area than I have.

 

Shan, I am difficult on signatures. Not being a native reader of Japanese, I tend to doubt anything that isn't practically an identical match to the books. Consequently, I've seen pieces that I wasn't sure about that have papered.

[Curran]

Shan and John,

 

Further apology to John in that I was mistakenly referencing a thread on Masayoshi that had also mentioned Hirotoshi. I had missed the thread he mentioned from September.

 

I came by this Hirotoshi years ago in the breaking up a a large collection with many gimei in it. I thought the signature legit and purchased it more as a "bargain" than any expertise in the area of Mito related works. John probably has a much better understanding of the school than I do. The overall tsuba workmanship is very skilled _ much moreso than evident in the photo I provided _ , but given their Hamano school influence I've wondered why the Uchikoshi faces were not more realistic. The sage is built up off the tsuba, but I don't think the 3-D aspect explains it. Uchikoshi figures often look a bit comic to me.

Shan, the tsuba you posted has elements of Hamano in the figure. Definitely in the face. Yet the plate itself doesn't strike me as Hamano. Just my 2cent opinion. Sorry that I cannot help more.

 

Other than a weakness for Norisuke work and ideally a nice higher level Jingo some day, I tend to prefer older simple iron sukashi. I put the Hirotoshi up for sale at Christies once, but had to pull it because they forgot to mention it was papered. Ironically, there was a similar looking gimei one in the same auction.

 

John, if you know anything about the sage and waterfall theme- I'd love to learn a bit. It pops up in several of the late Edo school works, but I've never been sure to what it might be reference. The usual references like Joly haven't helped much.

 

Curran

[shan]

Hi All,Thanks for the samples Ludolf,

John & Curran,Well at least its not a deliberate attempt to copy in your Opionions,so thats posative.

I think it needs to have more research and some indication of its period so that we can find out if it is by a student with the same name and when.

Would you agree that it is the right school or is that debatable as well?

What about its condition is "far from ideal" John? Is it its dirty look or its physical condition?

I don`t tend to clean these as i may take away the Shakudo (i have done it before 10 years ago in ignorance, on a plain Shakudo Tsuba...sorry i stopped when i realised what i had done)

If its the wear and tear............................

 

 

regards

shan

[docliss]

Dear Curran

 

I agree that Joly is of little help on the sage/waterfall front. Edmunds, in his Pointers and Clues …, lists eight such references on p. 79 but only one of these appears to be appropriate. It might be worth looking up Li Peh on pp. 148-9 of his book, or Rihaku – the Japanese name - on pp. 281-2 of Joly’s tome.

 

I hope that these may be of some help, John.

[John A Stuart]

Hi John, Isn't that one of those san sui themes that appear time and again based on Chinese painting. John

[docliss]

You are probably correct in that, John, but I am a bit intrigued by the container (? 'teapot') by his side, which may suggest some specific reference, perhaps?

 

John.

[shan]

"In my own hands I hold a bowl of tea; I see all of nature represented in its green color. Closing my eyes I find green fountains and pure water within my own heart. Silently sitting alone and drinking tea, I feel these become a part of me."

 

Soshitsu Sen

Grand Master XIV

[shan]

"Meanwhile, let us have a sip of tea. The afternoon glow is brightening the bamboos, the fountains are bubbling with delight, the soughing of the pines is heard in our kettle. Let us dream of evanescence, and linger in the beautiful foolishness of things."