"Mumei" Nakago

[0Takeda0]

I can't tell if this nakago has been altered or not. Blade seems typical of gendai swords, but I can't tell if it is a genuine nihonto or showato. I have had to remove a lot of active red rust from the nakago using horn. It almost looks like a signature and stamp were removed, but that could just be the way the tang has aged.

 

Some more background on the sword, the blade came with matching type 98 mounts, except the tsuka is wrong (which would explain the state of the nakago). Fuchi, seppa, tsuba, saya all seem to match the blade. The habaki was hard for me to remove because of rust. Blade has obvious fold patterns in some spots, but the blade is covered in scratches. The blade is on the shorter side, about 65cm nagasa.

[0Takeda0]

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[Peter Bleed]

Hard to say any anything based on what you have shown us, but this does NOT look like a Wartime blade - and the nakago certainly has been altered.

Peter

 

[0Takeda0]

If not a wartime blade, then what could it be?

I will post more pictures of the full blade in the coming days 

[Toryu2020]

Shinto or Shinshin-to macho-okuri probably done for the wartime mounts with severe corrosion of the nakago. Pics and dimensions of the blade will help but nothing here screams masterpiece. I would not expect much more than that.

-t

[Ian B3HR2UH]

It screams wartime blade to me 

Ian Brooks

[0Takeda0]

29 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said:

Shinto or Shinshin-to macho-okuri probably done for the wartime mounts with severe corrosion of the nakago. Pics and dimensions of the blade will help but nothing here screams masterpiece. I would not expect much more than that.

-t

I have a blade that looks like a kazu uchi mono, and I think it had it's nakago altered to fit Gunto Mounts as you have described. However, this blade by my judgement looks gendai, though I am not a very experienced collector. I should have pictures of the full blade by tomorrow.

[16k]

I agree that the nakago doesn’t look like a wartime nakago. I’d like to see more too.

[0Takeda0]

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[Toryu2020]

Darius -

It's almost as if your teasing us. Tough call from these photos but from the high, wide shinogi and lack of overall taper I move my bid to Showa-to...

-t

[0Takeda0]

The blade doesn't have much distal taper. I can't make out much of the finer details of the hada or hamon in person from the deep skratches, but I can tell it has both. The hamon seems fairly wide. 

 

What confuses the most is the nakago. It looks like there is or was some kind markings on the omote side, but it is too rusted for me to tell. It almost looks like there is a rectangular area where there was a signature or horimono .I don't know what to make of it. 

[Shugyosha]

Some masame/ nagare hada and some mokume hada there too so that suggests that it's a folded blade and may be traditionally made as opposed to machine made. I'd say traditionally made but I'm not sure there isn't the remains of a stamp, but as you said it might just be corrosion marks giving it a similar look.

 

As regards the tang, definitely some machi okuri, the lower hole seems to have some original patina on the inside whereas there's some clean steel and pillow from a drill bit in the upper one. Looks like it might be a bit of a hack job though: the pictures in post No.10 suggest that the alignment of the machi are off, not with each other but with the shape of the tang.

 

Edit:  Our posts crossed - have you tried talcum powder or chalk dust on the tang to see if it will highlight any markings?

[0Takeda0]

4 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Some masame/ nagare hada and some mokume hada there too so that suggests that it's a folded blade and may be traditionally made as opposed to machine made. I'd say traditionally made but I'm not sure there isn't the remains of a stamp, but as you said it might just be corrosion marks giving it a similar look.

 

As regards the tang, definitely some machi okuri, the lower hole seems to have some original patina on the inside whereas there's some clean steel and pillow from a drill bit in the upper one. Looks like it might be a bit of a hack job though: the pictures in post No.10 suggest that the alignment of the machi are off, not with each other but with the shape of the tang.

 

Edit:  Our posts crossed - have you tried talcum powder or chalk dust on the tang to see if it will highlight any markings?

I noticed the top hole looked newer and less clean when I first took the handle off.

 

I have heard of using powder to make a signature show better, but I haven't tried it before.

[ROKUJURO]

Darius,

most of the photos are not of much help.

Please take the HABAKI off and make some close-up photos of the NAKAGO directly from above with the light coming a bit from the side. The blade has been ground with the HABAKI on, so many features are concealed. The blade should be shown to an expert.
The heavy rust on the NAKAGO is probably not so old, so my guess is that is might be a traditionally made blade, perhaps late EDO/SHIN-SHINTO, or early GENDAI.  

[16k]

I’d say early Gendai too. That nakago still looks weird to me.

[b.hennick]

The patina on the tang goes up into the areas where the habaki did. This seems strange to me.

[0Takeda0]

1 hour ago, b.hennick said:

The patina on the tang goes up into the areas where the habaki did. This seems strange to me.

I think that might suggest it hadn't been oil properly, so the area under the habaki had gotten just as bad as the rest of the nakago. That's my guess

[0Takeda0]

 

[b.hennick]

It looks like artificial patination to me. There is a straight line above the machi. 

[0Takeda0]

The line above the machi Is where the top of the habaki rested. I think it hadn't been oiled in decades, and someone tried to clean the blade without removing the habaki. Though, that does not necessarily mean the patina on the nakago is natural. The areas where a stamp or mei might be are conveniently the places with the worst pitting.

 

As far as measurements go, at the machi it a little over 1/4 inch thick, at the kissaki it is just barely less than 1/4 an inch. Almost no taper.

[0Takeda0]

First image shows a rust spot that almost looks like a character, below the top mekugi ana. Second image shows an area where a stamp might have been in my opinion. I know it's still not much to go off of.

[0Takeda0]