Sunagashi

[b.hennick]

Doors anyone have a good example of a non-traditional WWII blades that has sunagashi? 

[ROKUJURO]

Barry,

that is a feature which I have never seen on blades not made from TAMAHAGANE.

[b.hennick]

Thanks, that is what I thought. I would like to hear from others. I do not have much experience with WWII blades.

[vajo]

edit! 

I postet here the false picture sorry (thanks Christian)

 

For explanation what sunagashi is

 

 

From Danny Massey's site www.nihontocraft.com

[vajo]

I'm with Jean. It's nearly impossible to make this with other steel then tamahagene. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Doubt it would be possible with oil quenching either, even is Tamahagane was used. 

[16k]

I have seen it on a Chinese folded blade, but never on an oil tempered one so far.

[C0D]

 

Not sure i'd define them sunagashi, but the effect is similar.
This is a wakizashi i made from 1070, water quenched

[DoTanuki yokai]

  On 11/26/2020 at 6:26 AM, vajo said:

For explanation what sunagashi is

 

From Danny Massey's site www.nihontocraft.com

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Chris

 

I was wondering and checked it on the site, you took the picture above sunagashi, thats the uchinoke.

http://www.nihontocraft.com/nihonto_hamon_hataraki.html

 

Sunagashi

 

[vajo]

Hui Christian, 🥴

thanks a lot. Was my fault. 👍

[b.hennick]

My first Japanese sword, bought in 1976, is Signed Toshimasa, dated 1942 and has a Seki arsenal stamp. It also has tight masame hada (images 3. 4. and 5) and sunagashi. It appears to be water quenched. Here are some photos. 

[16k]

  On 11/26/2020 at 2:32 PM, C0D said:

 

Not sure i'd define them sunagashi, but the effect is similar.
This is a wakizashi i made from 1070, water quenched

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Excellent job!

 

That is what I was taking about. I have a T10 sword with exactly that kind of sunagashi.

[C0D]

  On 11/26/2020 at 8:49 PM, 16k said:

Excellent job!

 

That is what I was taking about. I have a T10 sword with exactly that kind of sunagashi.

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Thank you, i think technically this is called alloy banding lines 

[PNSSHOGUN]

@b.hennick would you mind taking a picture of the Seki stamp & Nakago? 

[b.hennick]

I will after dinner. 

[b.hennick]

Here are mei, date and stamp. Note the nice job the smith did with the hamon around the machi

[PNSSHOGUN]

Looks like the early large Seki stamp that has been, like yours, found on Gendaito. 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 11/27/2020 at 2:00 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Looks like the early large Seki stamp that has been, like yours, found on Gendaito. 

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John,

Here is where the Gendaito/Nihonto jargon gets me confused sometimes - are you saying the blade is "traditionally made"? and that the large Seki stamps aren't part of the required stamping on non-traditional blades?  Or are we saying that this blade was made using traditional methods (including water quench) but likely used non-tamahagane, and therefore the Seki stamp?

[b.hennick]

To me the blade is traditionally made, madame hada, suguha, sunagashi, well made Mei and file marks. The way the hamon goes around the machi, we'll done boshi etc. The stamp is the odd thing on this sword. That is why I asked the question. This is the first sword that I bought - purchased in 1976.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 11/27/2020 at 3:19 PM, b.hennick said:

sunagashi

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Well, if Chris is right, that this isn't possible (nearly impossible?) with any steel other than tamahagane, then this supports the theory that the large Seki stamp is Gild stamp that has nothing to do with the regulatory stamping system.  Hmmmmm.

[Brian]

No..not at all. We need to stop seeing  handful of rare exceptions and throwing researched and accepted theories out the window.
We have no proof this is tamahagane, and only a theory it is water quenched. I've seen Showato with such activity. Heck....look at Manuel's sword. Do you call that Gendaito?
Don't let the exceptions drag you down a different path.

[16k]

And I think it is an urban myth. You can have activities with other steels than tamahagane. The activities are created by the temperature, the water quenching AND the fact the metal is folded. I think that if this condition isn’t there, you can’t have activities.

[vajo]

Hmm,

i think we have no clue what is meant by full traditional. If seki stamped showa-to shows all signs of a gendai-to what is the point that they are not gendai-to. I would really like to learn this.

I can see if a sword is oil quenched.

I can notice if a sword is made from mill steel.

 

But if you see martensit and perlit structures and folded steel layers, the hada and all the nice things we know from nihonto. Why they are Gun-to stamped.

I have no clue.

 

Mostly we see it on a sword that it is not gendaito. Stamped or not. But i didnt see a showa-to that looks like a gendaito.

[Bruce Pennington]

Simply using yokusi steel ( if I have the name right) would require the stamp - it’s not tamahagane.

[b.hennick]

Other than this sword by Toshimasa, I still have not seen a blade with sunagashi and masame hada that has a Seki stamp or other showato stamp, I think that is is in fact a gendaito - traditionally made blade.

[Kiipu]

Barry, if time permits, can you measure the height in millimeters of your Seki stamp?

 

As an aside, Type 100s were required to be inspected per regulations and the early ones were traditionally made.

[b.hennick]

5.0 mm  The width at the top is 4.0 mm and at the bottom 5.0 mm