Officer Swords & Enlisted Men

[Kiipu]

Quote

In November 1975, I was an overnight guest at the home of Zero pilot Kenji Yanagiya, the sole surviving escort pilot from the ill-fated Admiral Yamamoto mission.  He was a Flight Leading Seaman (equivalent to about a leading private or corporal) at the time of this mission.  He brought out a beautiful Naval Officer’s sword.  He told me that it was privately purchased, but since he was not an officer, he could not officially carry it.  However, he said that he used it to cut down papaya and other fruits from trees (gesturing with a swinging motion)!

Sakaida, Henry. “Comment on Article ‘Gunso-Gunto’.” Banzai 129 (January 1993): 10.

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, that could shed some light on some of the officer/NCO combos we’ve been seeing through the years!

[Shamsy]

I agree. This is a pretty definitive statement that suggests even where an NCO has access to an officer sword, we would not deface both it AND his ISSUED sword (which he did not own) by ripping them apart and jamming them together.

 

The NCO fittings with officer blade myth should be buried deep, lest it become as embedded as the 'pilot gunto' myth or the Type 3 designation.

 

That towards the end of the war NCO could bring there own swords is an undisputed fact though. I would imagine (conjecture only) that these were all civilian mounts though. Impersonating an officer is not a trivial matter. 

 

There are some photos too of soldiers/NCO with swords that were not 95s... Pretty sure F&G had one in their books. 

 

*Throwing in a disclaimer that I am aware that more than NCO and Commissioned Officer ranks were authorised to carry swords. NCO is just an easier 'catch all' reference. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

Here is  昭和21年3月第110師団步兵第163联队残留隊私物軍刀移譲者名簿
1946 March 110 Division  163 regiment remaining troops surrender privately owned Gunto owners name book.110 division was surrendered to KMT army in 河南省洛陽地區 He Nan province Luo Yang area.
Ouf of all 26 names ,13 of them are NCO(軍曹 曹長 伍長）.I think the new Mu mei blade could be Arsenal Blade(造兵刀）.Two of Gunto ordered from 偕行社.

Kaikosha (偕行社, Kaikōsha) is a Japanese organization of retired military servicemen whose membership is open to former commissioned officers of the JASDF and JGSDF as well as commissioned officers, warrant officers, officer cadets, and high-ranking civil servants who served in the Imperial Japanese Army. Since 1 February 2011 Kaikosha has been a non-profit organization described under Japanese law as a public interest foundation (公益財団法人).

The original Kaikosha was founded before World War II as an organization exclusively of active-duty commissioned officers and warrant officers in the Imperial Japanese Army for mutual aid, friendship, and academic research, but was re-founded after the war to represent formerly high-ranking army officials.

The organization's name means “let’s go together” or “we shall fight this war side by side,” and derives from a line in an old Chinese poem recorded in the Book of Odes.

I'm posting one of my 陸軍偕行社 ordered Gunto  made by 兼道 for reference.

 New/Old           Mei                 Rank           Owner
1.新                    三品義明        曹長            船越利明 
2.古                    無銘                軍曹            組藤圭次
3.新                    無銘                軍曹            梶山友一
4.新                    無銘                 軍曹           井上馨
5.新                   偕行社             軍曹            渡邊信也
6.古                   大和守安定     伍長            田中晃
7.新                     無銘                軍曹           水谷石男
8.新                     無銘                軍曹           稻田重夫
9.新                     無銘                軍曹           旭政一
10.新                   偕行社           軍曹           工藤虎士
11.新                   藤原助定       曹長           吉川繁春
12.新                   無銘               曹長           河田謹一郎
13.新                   無銘               伍長           青木友明
#6 田中晃 Tanaka Akira had a Koto,maybe from his family.Tanaka is a popular family name in Japan and usually a wealthy family.

[Bruce Pennington]

So, numbers 1 & 6 are enlisted rank but their swords had mei.  We don't know how they were mounted though, do we?

[BANGBANGSAN]

31 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

So, numbers 1 & 6 are enlisted rank but their swords had mei.  We don't know how they were mounted though, do we?

1,5,6,10,11 had mei. The list had total 26 name ,13 officers and 13 NCOs.I ONLY post all NCO 's.No photo of the swords.

[Kiipu]

On 11/25/2020 at 12:17 PM, Shamsy said:

That towards the end of the war NCO could bring there own swords is an undisputed fact though.

 

And also in the beginning as well.  It was during the time frame of May 1939 to May 1945 that the lower ranks were prohibited from wearing non-regulation swords.

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/f216/short-development-history-type-95-gunto-676112-post1751561/#post1751561

 

Quote

These entitlements for wearing swords got somewhat out of control in the campaigns in China where many non-entitled men also wore private Samurai swords. So on 13th May 1939 an order went out to enforce entitlement regulations. Thus you got into trouble with MPs for wearing swords when you were not qualified to do so.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

On 11/25/2020 at 7:24 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

I'm posting one of my 陸軍偕行社 ordered Gunto  made by 兼道 for reference.

Trystan, I can't quite make out the date on your Kanemichi.  Is that Aug 1939?

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Trystan, I can't quite make out the date on your Kanemichi.  Is that Aug 1939?

昭和十五年八月

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 11/26/2020 at 10:24 AM, BANGBANGSAN said:

 

 

BTW

The first sword is a Mantetsu, it belong to Major 少佐 稻垣毅治 from Regiment headquarter 联隊本部.

@Bruce Pennington

[Peter Bleed]

I discovered this thread rather late, BUT it is very interesting. Thank you for sharing it. I would like to know more about why and how you discovered these sources. Greta work!

Peter

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Peter Bleed said:

Greta work!

Sorry! Couldn't resist that! Ha!

 

6 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

The first sword is a Mantetsu,

Thomas,

I honestly tried but couldn't make it out.  Does it give any data like date or serial number?  And is that one of the swords that went to an NCO?

[Kiipu]

BangBangSan never ceases to amaze.  He can spot a kanji character a mile away.  No details on the Mantetsu other than the name and rank of the owner as stated by BangBangSan in post #10.  The information can be found in the fourth column from the right, the preceding columns being related to the table header.  The kanji characters can be seen below.

 

8 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

The first sword is a Mantetsu, it belong to Major 少佐 稻垣毅治 from Regiment headquarter 联隊本部.

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

 

Thomas,

I honestly tried but couldn't make it out.  Does it give any data like date or serial number?  And is that one of the swords that went to an NCO?

Bruce

Here it is.

 

[Kiipu]

22 hours ago, Peter Bleed said:

I would like to know more about why and how you discovered these sources.

 

The document that you inquired about can be found over at JACAR.  Go to https://www.jacar.go.jp/english/ and cut and paste the following letter and eleven digits C15010630300 or the following kanji characters 歩兵第１６３連隊残留隊　私物移譲兵器連名簿綴 into the search box.  If all went to plan, you should be looking at the document that BangBangSan posted above.

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

 

The document that you inquired about can be found over at JACAR.  Go to https://www.jacar.go.jp/english/ and cut and paste the following letter and eleven digits C15010630300 or the following kanji characters 歩兵第１６３連隊残留隊　私物移譲兵器連名簿綴 into the search box.  If all went to plan, you should be looking at the document that BangBangSan posted above.

4 more  偕行社 sword on the 2nd page.

1.第六中隊              少尉    渡邊一
2.第二機關銃中隊 准尉     半田健二
3.第三大隊本部     准尉     真野正行
4.第九中隊             少尉     橫山宏