How old is this sword? 1800s 1700s?

[ozymay]

Hello,

My grandfather passed this year and I received this sword from him. I think it's a kanmuri-otoshi Shinshinto blade, is this correct? (Based off of information I got via Facebook) But I am wondering how I can tell from what period the sword is from. what do you think?

The blade itself measures about 14 inches.

Thanks

-Ozymay (Jeff)

[vajo]

I think it is muromachi/ shinto period.

 

Please give the sword some choiji oil für the fittings and the blade. Condition needs a lot of good care.

I like the Tsuba + Fuchi/Kashira. 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Jeff,

Could be Shinshinto; could be Muromachi.  Hard to tell from just these pictures.

Cheers,  Grey, also in Minnesota

[ozymay]

13 minutes ago, vajo said:

I think it is muromachi/ shinto period.

 

Please give the sword some choiji oil für the fittings and the blade. Condition needs a lot of good care.

I like the Tsuba + Fuchi/Kashira. 

Thank you! I just applied some Choiji oil after I took these photos. I am looking at cleaning up the Tsuba right now with ivory possibly. Thank you.

[ozymay]

13 minutes ago, Grey Doffin said:

Hi Jeff,

Could be Shinshinto; could be Muromachi.  Hard to tell from just these pictures.

Cheers,  Grey, also in Minnesota

What kind of other photos could help? I can see  if I could take some. Thanks.

Cheers to my Minnesota family.

[vajo]

Jeff don't clean it. And dont try to remove rust. This is a delicate work for an experienced collector. 

 

Iron needs years of care to get in better states of conditon. 

[ozymay]

2 minutes ago, vajo said:

Jeff don't clean it. And dont try to remove rust. This is a delicate work for an experienced collector. 

 

Iron needs years of care to get in better state of conditon. 

That sounds good. Thanks for the input.

[vajo]

I would start with the blade. Remove the Habaki and looks under it. I would oil the blade slightly. After that use uchiko to remove the oil. your towel will be black from the dust on it. After that oil it new.

 

For the Iron Fittings took a soft cotton with choji and oil all parts slightly. You must do this every week over a long time. Do not rub on the parts. 

[ozymay]

5 minutes ago, vajo said:

I would start with the blade. Remove the Habaki and looks under it. I would oil the blade slightly. After that use uchiko to remove the oil. your towel will be black from the dust on it. After that oil it new.

 

For the Iron Fittings took a soft cotton with choji and oil all parts slightly. You must do this every week over a long time. Do not rub on the parts. 

That is great information! Thank you, I will do my best.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Jeff,

Feel free to call with questions before you attempt any repair, or questions in general.  Mean time, here is a care and handling brochure you should read:

http://nbthk-ab.org/cleaning-maintenance.php

Cheers,  Grey  218-726-0395

[Tom Darling]

Jeff,  I am not sure if you have a shinogi (Ridge), it looks like hira-zukuri, flat on each side? and the mekuni-ana is quite old.  Kindly take a better pic of the point area, and other side of blade. I would call it a ko-wakizashi at 14 inches  with goma-bashi .  The sword is very very interesting,  and definitely have it polished,  excellent candidate for shinsa.  Take a couple more pic of the nakago without the habaki.  It could be fat on one side. Cheers.

 

 

Tom D.

[Geraint]

Dear Jeff.

 

When you say that the blade is 14" long is that overall including the tang?  If so then what is the length from the tip to the notch at the back where the habaki sits?

 

All the best.

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Looking at the yasurime i would say edo. And for the shape i would say its unokubi zukuri with hira zukuri base. 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/styles.html

[ozymay]

12 hours ago, Tom Darling said:

Jeff,  I am not sure if you have a shinogi (Ridge), it looks like hira-zukuri, flat on each side? and the mekuni-ana is quite old.  Kindly take a better pic of the point area, and other side of blade. I would call it a ko-wakizashi at 14 inches  with goma-bashi .  The sword is very very interesting,  and definitely have it polished,  excellent candidate for shinsa.  Take a couple more pic of the nakago without the habaki.  It could be fat on one side. Cheers.

 

 

Tom D.

Hi Tom, Thanks for the comment. It does look like Hira-zukuri to me. The total length if you count the tang is at 18 inches. I took some more photos for you. hope they help. Thank you!

- Jeff

[ozymay]

11 hours ago, Geraint said:

Dear Jeff.

 

When you say that the blade is 14" long is that overall including the tang?  If so then what is the length from the tip to the notch at the back where the habaki sits?

 

All the best.

 

The total length if you count the tang is 18 inches.

 

Thanks for the comment

 

-Jeff

[ozymay]

10 hours ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

Looking at the yasurime i would say edo. And for the shape i would say its unokubi zukuri with hira zukuri base. 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/styles.html

Nice, Thanks for the reply! That website seems like a good resource.

[vajo]

The nakago ana is not drilled.

[RichardP]

What’s going on here?  Seems to appear on the other side of the blade as well...

[ozymay]

2 hours ago, RichardP said:

What’s going on here?  Seems to appear on the other side of the blade as well...

That is just residue where the Habaki was.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Jeff, you have a lot of people throwing out bits & pieces, much of which requires explanation. My recommendation is to lightly oil the blade (everything except the nakago (tang). Then, do nothing until you contact Grey Doffin, who can walk you through the cleaning process.

 

Remember that all of us are just caretakers of our Nihonto.

[Tom Darling]

I would contribute the surface rubbing to the habaki,  tight fit.  

[Geraint]

Dear Jeff.

 

Just to summarise what we have so far.........  You have a nice sword, the length makes it a ko wakizashi or short wakiszashi.  Swords between 12" and 24" are wakizashi.  The sword is unsigned, (mu mei), but the yasurime, (file marks used by the smith to finish the tang),  are clear.  Generally, (and you will soon realise that nothing is absolute in this game), clear file marks suggest that the sword is slightly younger, in this case Shinto, (1600 - 1800) or Shinshinto, (1800 - 1860).  Those dates are approximate.  Given all your photogr[hs which make some things clearere than at the start, my suggestion would be that this is a Shinshinto sword.

 

The koshirae, (mounting), is quite plain but attractive and generally complete, go very easy on the cleaning of the tsuba until you have taken up Ken's suggestion and met up with Gray who will be able to offer you good advice.

 

Whatever the verdict you have a nice example of a genuine Japanese sword in full mounts, it is a nice thing and the family association with your Grandfather makes it special.  Enjoy the journey as you learn more.

 

All the best.

 

 

[Tom Darling]

Jeff,  I believe that your unokubi-zekuri blade was originally a Naginata,  machi okuri, would explain the yasuri-me appearing fresher. The five notches on the tang,  could have been a measurement  where to raise the machi. The kassaki boshi was re-shaped, mekuni-ana is old,  and  chiseled  nearer the nakago-jiri end of tang.  Naginata began in the feudal times,  it very possibly  could  be over 300 yrs old?  Good luck.   I like it a lot. Congratulations. Take care. IMHO.

[Geraint]

Dear Tom.

 

Would you like to expand your thinking on that idea a bit?  What sort of naginata did you have in mind?   I would expect naginata naoshi to have evidence of a shinogi in the nakago and the blade, perhaps naginat hi also.  As this sword is hira zukuri based none of these features are evident.   If the shortening was so severe that all these signs were lost then I am surprised that the thinning of the mune is so short and does not continue into the rest of the blade.

 

I am fairly sure that the marks on the nakago mune are not measurements for shortening, I think the consensus is that these are assembly marks.

 

All the best.

[Tom Darling]

O-kay, I'll give it a crack in my humble way.

 

It is an occurrence  when two or more similar distinct patterns/styles of execution are found in a particular manner or technique on the blade. Also, notice two or three inches  below kassaki shows a groove indicating what appears to be a shinogi. Naginata to ko-waki.  Peace.