When has a modification Gone too far?

[shan]

Not intending to name or shame ......but a story of Horror... sheer Terror with anguish and pain and a degree of ignorance :? that offers a big word caution nonetheless .

I have been trying to help out another Collector in advising of what i thought was Genuine and Fake items of Nihonto prior to purchase by him.(ok, better than No advice at all, but only just)

I recently got sent some images by this said Very Nice old Gentleman showing his tanto that he was trying to Re-mount.

It already had mounts but for some reason he didn`t like them and wanted a change.I traded the Tsuka from him.

I heard he had found another tsuka that he thought would fit and he was very happy with the new tsuka, but the Nakago was a little too thick to fit into the Tsuka so it needed modifications.

 

 

 

 

He has since decided that he would like to change the Tanto and always one for something new said i would do a trade for whatever he wanted of mine.This turned out to be my Polished Kanetsune Tanto that he liked.

 

 

 

 

 

I sent him my polished Kanetsune Blade in its "mounts" along with a nice Black Tanto Saya with mother of pearl inlay.

And he was sending me the tanto he had that was whole but it needed a polish and i was thinking of it for another Koshirae i have that it would fit better than the Kanetsune Blade would.

This is what turned up........

 

 

I also liked the Vice marks on the blade,a particularily nice touch that....

 

If anyone ever asks you what the point is, in this forum , feel free to send them to this post.

And if you see this post....... I beg you,please don`t do that again.>Alter the wood not the metal.

 

Regards

[loiner1965]

thats just barbaric....gutted for you shan

[shan]

loiner1965........."thats just barbaric....gutted for you shan"

 

Me too,But more so for the blade....

Whats worse is, it was out of polish, but appears flawless and has a nice Choji-Midare hamon.

It had some potential once.

If anyone has a similar Tanto Blade,I am now in the market for one for a Koshirae i have.

This one will have to be returned.........unless anyone knows how to save it.

regards

shan

[remzy]

Altered nakagos cannot be saved, the metal is gone and scared forever to remain a piece of junk with a former glory, it sucks, its sad but some ignorant people just shouldnt handle antiques.

 

My first expression when seeing this was "What the f...?!" why didnt he had a new tsuka made instead of altering the blade it is supposed to preserve.

 

I have a koto tanto thats presumably gemei of kanemitsu, hard to be 100% certain as the blade is in about 50%polish, the tanto is bizen den with a few hadawares, dimensions looks rather similar but im not certain.

Edit to add: but im not saying this to tell you to buy it from me in order to put it in your mount, mounts are made for one blade specificaly and you cannot swap them like youd swap socks!

[IanB]

Shan, I have a magnificent naginata that I traded for a shotgun 20 or 25 years ago. It is in its original Momoyama period red lacquered shaft with plain copper mounts. Sadly some ****** has taken a grinder to both faces of the nakago - presumably to remove a signature and the date. I still keep and treasure it because the blade itself is glorious and the fact that it nows suffers anonymity is not its fault.

Ian Bottomley

[loiner1965]

Shan, I have a magnificent naginata that I traded for a shotgun 20 or 25 years ago. It is in its original Momoyama period red lacquered shaft with plain copper mounts. Sadly some ****** has taken a grinder to both faces of the nakago - presumably to remove a signature and the date. I still keep and treasure it because the blade itself is glorious and the fact that it nows suffers anonymity is not its fault.

Ian Bottomley

you see them like i do ian for their beauty and not for value....my kiyomitsu as a serious flaw which devalues it when i got it polished but i still clean and oil it as if it was a national treasure as its still a part of japans history,

[Kevin]

This one will have to be returned.........unless anyone knows how to save it.

 

Nope - it's trashed. Completely banjaxed. I'd get the one you sent him back very quickly before he decides that needs modification as well. I'd also point out that he has managed to reduce its value to zero. There's spanners that would now be worth more.

 

Kevin

[Mark Green]

I think many of us that have collected from places like ebay, have many horror stories to tell.

I have a spectacular Jumonji yari that someone took a grinder to both sides of the tang. You can still just make out some of the Kanji marks, but not enough to make a read.

I have spent over 200 hrs+++ in the polish of this yari, and that was after Louis had taken the big rust off. I know why most pro polishers will not do these. It has turned out to be the best one I have ever seen. I should have new pics soon.

My nobusada spent 50+ years in some old ww2 vets back yard chopping weeds. It has some very permenant scars from that.

Dana san had this nice old sword that someone had been using to split wood. There were hammer marks all along the mune, and it was bent up like a snake. I think that one was a fatality. It had cracks from the ha up through the sword. I think the good end became a nice Tanto though.

on, and on, and on, I could go with horror stories.

Mark G

[shan]

[you see them like i do ian for their beauty and not for value....my kiyomitsu as a serious flaw which devalues it when i got it polished but i still clean and oil it as if it was a national treasure as its still a part of japans history,

I also see them for there beauty as i think almost all collectors do.

I am merely pointing out the shocking treatment this blade recieved a few weeks ago.

Its about originality to a degree with me and i like my blades to be either original or historically altered with compassion.

Grinded to fit a Tsuka is beyond my understanding.

The problem is that i do like it and regardless of its damages i am trying to think of a way to keep it (as once i have something in my possesion ,i find it hard to return it)

Problem is its going to cost me a mounted Kantesune (Gimei) But Echizen Seki school 1880 Tanto in full polish.

Ah decisions decisions.........

i Need to think about it.

regards

shan

[remzy]

Garbage VS mounted blade in polish, easy decision to me!

[loiner1965]

[you see them like i do ian for their beauty and not for value....my kiyomitsu as a serious flaw which devalues it when i got it polished but i still clean and oil it as if it was a national treasure as its still a part of japans history,

I also see them for there beauty as i think almost all collectors do.

I am merely pointing out the shocking treatment this blade recieved a few weeks ago.

Its about originality to a degree with me and i like my blades to be either original or historically altered with compassion.

Grinded to fit a Tsuka is beyond my understanding.

The problem is that i do like it and regardless of its damages i am trying to think of a way to keep it (as once i have something in my possesion ,i find it hard to return it)

Problem is its going to cost me a mounted Kantesune (Gimei) But Echizen Seki school 1880 Tanto in full polish.

Ah decisions decisions.........

i Need to think about it.

regards

shan

you should return it shan.....in my post i meant i would not hesitate in buying a tanto in that condition but your case is different as you agreed a trade for an undamaged blade and it was damaged after........the seller acted stupidly....its common sense to remove wood rather than metal

[Jean]

Steve wrote :

 

its common sense...

 

Common sense is very seldom found, I will hate to give a definition of "common" in our days

[loiner1965]

a friend of mine who has a Omi Daijo Tadahiro wakizashi which i am trying to buy from him :D tried to polish it himself with a grinder and i thought ruined it...emailed him last night as he is a great chap and asked how badly damaged is it.....he said he never used a grinder but a wire wheel but it slipped off the blade so he tried it on the tang but fortunately with minimal damage....i do not think he will sell but told him to leave it alone from now on.....you can expect this from a person not knowing nihonto but not a dealer or collector

[IanB]

All, Here is the horror story to beat all horror stories. About 20 years ago a guy rang me asking if he could show me a couple of blades he had been given. He was a gas engineer and had been working in some dear old lady's cellar. Leaning against the wall were the two rusty blades which, when he enquired about them, he was given. When he arrived at my place he unwrapped newspaper from around the bundle to reveal a fairly ordinary katana blade (no recollections about it) and another. It was a glorious 30" or so hirazukuri katana with one of the best fudo horimono I have ever seen, despite the rust. The rest of the blade was bright and when I enquired he told me proudly how he had put it on a linisher to get the rust off. The heat from this had put 5 or 6 hagiri in it!!!

Ian

[loiner1965]

sends shivers down your spine when you read stories like this

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Common sense is very seldom found, I will hate to give a definition of "common" in our days

 

You win the "quote of the month" award, John.

[kusunokimasahige]

Shan get your sword back immediately!

 

do not stand for this this is an outrage!

 

KM

[shan]

Thankyou for you opinions.

I have requested the return of the Kanetsune Tanto and copied a few of your replies to confirm my initial opinion,the "seller and collector"has stated that he did not think he had done anything to the nakago and could i send images to prove that it is indeed damaged!!!

This just gets better and better.......

I have said thats pointless as i am sending it back.But i wonder where this is going......

 

A slightly worried.... regards shan

[Jean]

Ian,

 

I am still wondering which of Ignorance or common sense have caused most world ordeals during centuries

[hybridfiat]

Ian,

 

I am still wondering which of Ignorance or common sense have caused most world ordeals during centuries

 

 

Old english saying (my grannie's): "common sense is only common to those who have it"

 

Good saying seen on a T shirt: "Stupidity SHOULD be painful"

[shan]

HI all,

I got my Kanetsune Tanto back and it was in untouched condition. :D

I got this "interesting" explaination from the owner as to why he did that to the nakago of his blade.

The reason that he did that to the other tanto blade was because a specialist in Nihonto approx 3-4 years ago had a look at the blade and its mounts along with a silver Kozuka he had, with views of a PX on a katana he was interested in.

The expert was so keen to do a deal on the silver Kozuka that he offered the gent £300 PX for it for a deal that day and only gave a cursory glance at the Tanto (probably because the Kozuka was clearly a very valuable item and he was totally focused on that)."the 'expert' who examined my Tanto gave it a very quick glance and said it was virtually worthless but the silver kozuka he offered me £300 as a px price on the katana"

This is the reason why he did that to the nakago, because he was told by an "expert" that it was (i quote) "virtually worthless"

This 'expert' is in fact quite "a well known dealer",according to the elderly gent.

This is why i always say get a valuation or opinion from someone who is not a dealer.

His total focus in acquiring the silver kozuka led him to misinform the owner of a perfectly servicable (Flawless) blades worth.

P.s there is nothing here that the owner would not substantiate if need be as he is very "upset" that he was misinformed about this tanto`s worth and what he did to the blade as a result of this poor "Evaluation".

I am sure Most Dealers/Experts are honest and trustworthy (but perhaps not if there is a good profit to be made, as this would indicate)

I Vividly remember Don Bayney(a very friendly & knowledgable guy) offering me a fantastic £200 for my again Flawless though average mounted Tamba no Kami Yoshimichi with sudare-ba that i was taking to Victor Harris for kantei(with some other blades)12 years or so ago.I did not sell to him though, regardless of his interest in it :?

regards

shan

[Brian]

Sounds like a bad excuse to me

You don't need great knowledge to look at a blade and see that it isn't in a ruined state and shouldn't be ground down at all. Even a novice knows not to grind a nakago. The most basic of research will tell you that. Frankly, I would even grind a poor, low class blade. It just doesn't make sense.

Oh well...hopefully he is more educated nowdays.

 

Brian

[loiner1965]

the tanto would make a nice study piece to beginers like me as its worthless in the monetary side but valuable in its history and learning features....is he in the uk shan

[shan]

Hi Brian,

yes a bit lame excuse IMHO as well, but let it be known that it is better to not have advice than to have bad advice from a "reputable" dealer.I am unhappy with both parties on this occasion.One was selfish and the other stupid.

Hi Steve,

Yes he is a UK based Owner.

To be honest i was so shocked by what i saw,i tried to get it at a very good price for him £250-£300 as i wanted it to at least get no worse.

He rejected the offer as he needs it to hold koshirae together (oddments he made up again)

I also wanted its saya with Kojiri because i had already (unknowingly) bought the tsuka with Fuchikashira and didn`t know there was a kojiri as well.

then i saw the saya and blade and realised that i had the complete tanto set made for the blade.

I tried to buy or swap it to put it back together,but he wants a tanto with Kozuka slot saya.

We all know its worth nothing and he thought it worth nothing, but wants a good price for his handywork anyway.

What i don`t understand is, it was a tanto in reasonably fair mounts that matched Fuchi kashira and Kojira.It all fit very well,so why change and destroy it all?

As i have always said there are infintisimal levels of collector and this level just wants something that looks nice on a display rack and may be a talking piece for friends at a dinner party.

In other words,If it could be bought, i would have bought it,he is nor selling steve.

regards

shan

[Ford Hallam]

There is only one way for the fellow who ground that nakago to atone for his crime...Seppuku! and with the same blade

[loiner1965]

There is only one way for the fellow who ground that nakago to atone for his crime...Seppuku! and with the same blade

................certainly fits the crime

[kusunokimasahige]

I would like to add he has to commit seppuku with the Nakago, not the blade....

 

(reminds me of the beautiful movie seppuku in which a poor samurai is forced to do it with a bamboo blade)

 

KM

[remzy]

I would like to add he has to commit seppuku with the Nakago, not the blade....

 

(reminds me of the beautiful movie seppuku in which a poor samurai is forced to do it with a bamboo blade)

 

KM

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056058/

Quite a poignant movie if i may say so.

 

As for the guilty person, i dont think that "somebody told me blabla" would even count as a valid excuse, if a psychiatrist told me to jump off a roof for whatever reason or any other thing that would make me wonder, i wouldnt think "oh well, a knowledgable person told me to jump... banzai!!!"

[shan]

It gets worse guys....... as he showed me some images of a nice Koto blade that he had been offfered for £1000.

I said i thought it might be early and that if in VGC to buy it and get it looked at by a professional shinsa.

He Took it to Don Bayney (You know...the very same guy who told him his tanto was Junk) and Mr Bayney has told him its worth around £4-5000 to buy in.

I suspect that it may be in fact a very decent, early blade for an offer like that from a UK dealer.

There truly is no justice in this world......

shan

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kusunokimasahige]

You sound about as p*ssed off as i was when my friend got the Millenium Falcon for his B day and i only got a Tauntaun with Han Solo in bespin gear for mine.......

 

 

KM