curious nakago

[beakner]

I'm just wondering if anyone has run across this before... I recently had picked up a no-dachi blade with a 45 1/2" cutting edge. The nagago or tang looks to have been lap-welded with another tang & extended it from 8 3/4" to 11" It seems that rather than shorten the blade ..they extended the tang?? I'm just curious if anyone has seen this before, Thanks, Alan

[DirkO]

Seen the size of the blade, I guess the reason would be stability and handling. But why they didn't make the nakago long enough in the first place ...

[Brian]

Alan,

Why are the lines on the nakago so uneven? The shape isn't as regular and refined as I would have expected.

Do you have a shot of the nakago from directly above?

 

Brian

[beakner]

Hi, Here's a couple more pic's I drew a pattern of the details that might not show in the closeup along with filemark details that weren't hammered in the welding process. It also looks to have been signed ...but all has been obsecured by hammering. Just another mystery !

[loiner1965]

whats the rest of the sword like

[DirkO]

Hmm can you see a welding line on both sides ? Seeing you describe it as being "signed" at one point, maybe it's a weird form of orikaeshi mei ?

[beakner]

Here is one pic of the blade It of course is out of polih...but hamon os basically straight & L-O-N-G It has a 2 1/2" fukure about 5" down from the mune-machi & a few ware .

[loiner1965]

thats a sword and half......brilliant

[IanB]

Alan, Do you have any mounts for this blade? I ask because I have seen several Chinese swords of these dimensions that I suspect may have a Japanese origin (in part or maybe in whole). They are characterised by having a long tsuka, bound in leather in a similar way to a Japanese sword, with a 'kashira' or pommel of brass that obviously has the end of a very narrow tang that protrudes through a hole in it and is riveted over. So far nothing particularly Japanese - but, these blades have a shallow sori, a shinogi, a kissaki, an habaki and were carried around in a Japanese shaped black lacquered wooden scabbard - non of which are normal Chinese features. I never managed to get the hilt of one of these X rayed but I have entertained the idea the tang may have been extended by having a bit welded on so they could be rivetted. Just a thought.

Ian Bottomley

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Alan, Do you have any mounts for this blade? I ask because I have seen several Chinese swords of these dimensions that I suspect may have a Japanese origin (in part or maybe in whole). They are characterised by having a long tsuka, bound in leather in a similar way to a Japanese sword, with a 'kashira' or pommel of brass that obviously has the end of a very narrow tang that protrudes through a hole in it and is riveted over. So far nothing particularly Japanese - but, these blades have a shallow sori, a shinogi, a kissaki, an habaki and were carried around in a Japanese shaped black lacquered wooden scabbard - non of which are normal Chinese features.

 

Hi Ian.

Are you describing something like these two ? Chinese girl tall 160 cm :

 

 

and here a Nakago extended thru riveting (John, you should remember this one...)

to obtain a polearm from a sidearm. Possibly the same case of the one discussed here, thru a different method

of extension. I wonder if the tang didn't get suriage after the extension (referred to the topic one)...

 

 

[beakner]

Sorry....The only thing I ever got was the blade & the story that it was a WW2 bringback with a few naginata blades. I've managed to fit endo & before parts on a new 12" tsuka....guilded silver habaki & 3 1/2" iron tsuba . I also found a place in Australia that is making a saya for this blade. I took a pic of it along side a 27" koto blade. It should be a great addition for my collection.

[hybridfiat]

"I also found a place in Australia that is making a saya "

 

I didnt know anyone here did saya.

Pray tell who, who?

[beakner]

Hi Steve....The person I contacted was through a company dealing modern no-dachi. They were the only ones that replied to me agreeing to make me one after sending a tracing. Out of respect...I would have to ask if it is OK to give out his name. I'm sure it is entirely possible that it is being made elseware (China ?) but the price quote (in Austalian $)was reasonable & I have yet to receive it to comment on the quality & fit.

[sencho]

Alan,

 

I really think you need to find a new storage method for your swords, mate....

 

Standing them up with the weight of the sword on the kissaki down on the floor, makes me feel sick!

 

Cheers!!

[beakner]

Sorry for the shock- Thats the only way I could get enough room for a pic. Be assured ....I don't store them that way & my carpeting has 3/4" foam

[hybridfiat]

Hi Steve....The person I contacted was through a company dealing modern no-dachi. They were the only ones that replied to me agreeing to make me one after sending a tracing. Out of respect...I would have to ask if it is OK to give out his name. I'm sure it is entirely possible that it is being made elseware (China ?) but the price quote (in Austalian $)was reasonable & I have yet to receive it to comment on the quality & fit.

 

 

No problem, I understand.

[IanB]

Carlo, No, the swords I am refering to look very much more like a no dachi. There is one in the Royal Armouries and since I am going in on Monday I will try and take a picture of it. It is in a case which is almost impossible to open so it will be through glass. The tsuka on the swords I have seen must be almost 400 cm or so. They are also wrapped just like a Japanese sword, but with leather, and have plain brass mounts.

Ian Bottomley

[loiner1965]

years ago i found a website which showed tachis of enormous sizes i will try and find it again

[John A Stuart]

Hi Ian, In the realm of the Chinese weaponry there is an amazing array of swords that show differential hardening, folding patterns and all sorts of shapes etc. This for the Nihontophiles, don't neglect the Chinese weapons, they tie in with Japanese development very closely and show cross-influence and independent similar evolution. Anyhow here is what you may be talking about. John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Carlo, No, the swords I am refering to look very much more like a no dachi. There is one in the Royal Armouries and since I am going in on Monday I will try and take a picture of it. It is in a case which is almost impossible to open so it will be through glass. The tsuka on the swords I have seen must be almost 400 cm or so. They are also wrapped just like a Japanese sword, but with leather, and have plain brass mounts.

Ian Bottomley

 

Pics of that one would be a great Xmas present to me, Ian. Much appreciated if you'll be able to post it (especially of the

yokote if present)..

And many thanks anyway if something goes wrong.

 

400 cm tsuka ?

 

John, great pics. Like the one with Masame-like hada.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

years ago i found a website which showed tachis of enormous sizes i will try and find it again

 

http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/nodachi.html

[loiner1965]

thats the one many thanks jacques

[IanB]

John, Yes, that is almost it. Same type of 'kashira' / pommel that splays out towards the top, same type of tsuba. The blade on the RA one is much more Japanese-like. In fact I have had a sneaking feeling that it was a Japanese Odachi / Nodachi blade, modified and mounted by the Chinese. Since I have seen two of these weapons, both exactly the same, it suggests they were some form of regulation Chinese sword. Although only distantly related, the RA has three 'naginata' like weapons that I am certain are Japanese, but made for export. The blades look exactly like normal ones but are riveted into the shafts. When you get them out you find they are un-hardened and have ridiculous short tangs. They are mounted on black lacquered shafts of Japanese oak with pierced chrysanthemum tsuba in shakudo (or at least darkened alloy) and a series of sleeves over the upper part of the shaft done in gilt with stylised foliage. There are records of the Red Seal Ships carrying staff weapons to trade in South East Asia. I think this is what these are. They all differ slightly in details of the decoration but are generically the same. I have seen about a dozen over the years. I will try and get a pic of these as well.

Ian

[John A Stuart]

This is a fascinating subject. The Chinese had their own techniques for producing folded swords with grain structure and hardened edges that produce a hamon of sorts.Also swords had core steel and skin steel. Some fittings seem very close in style to Japanese ones, habaki, tsuba etc. differing only in the artistic sense. Of course I find the Japanese analogs more refined and subtle, thus more attractive to me. Japan and China (I'm not ignoring Korean kingdoms) were at times huge trading partners and I see this cross pollination as the cause of similarity. I wonder what happened to all the weapons that went to China. Some of these long swords may be Japanese in origin, modified to suit Chinese tastes and needs. Can't wait to see the VA examples. More data has lately been forthcoming from China as they start to regain a sense of their ancient history again. Thanks, Ian. John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The blade on the RA one is much more Japanese-like. In fact I have had a sneaking feeling that it was a Japanese Odachi / Nodachi blade, modified and mounted by the Chinese. Since I have seen two of these weapons, both exactly the same, it suggests they were some form of regulation Chinese sword.

 

 

This one is *from* korea but *possibly not* korean :

 

[IanB]

All, Here are the images I promised. They are pretty bad but give you an idea. As I had remembered, the blade has an habaki and a shinogi. I could not tell if it ever had a yokote, it was too worn, but the kissaki region looks Japanese to me. I also append an image of one of the pseudo naginata I mentioned

Ian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Great pics Ian, thanks.

 

Looks like it has a very thin Mune, doesn't it ?

 

Any measurement ?