Help With Identification Of Japanese Sword

[Lee]

This sword came from a WWII veteran that fought in the invasion of Luzon, Philippines.   

[Surfson]

It looks like a legitimate samurai sword, Lee.  It looks like it was once longer and was probably cut down.  Since it only has one hole in the tang, it was either much longer or just trimmed a bit on the end.  My guess is that it was made before 1590.  Please don't make any attempts at cleaning or restoration, as it is easy to ruin one of these blades.  Congratulations on a good find!

[Lee]

Thanks, I was wondering about its age.  The tang is unsigned.   The guy I got it from said his brother was in the invasion of Luzon, and actually was given the sword by headhunters who killed the Japanese soldier. 

[Lee]

It is 34 3/8" overall length.  

 

[Ken-Hawaii]

Welcome to NMB, Lee. Good start with this blade. Looks interesting

 

Please measure the hacho (from the notch to the tip, & the sori (with your ruler at the notch & the tip, measure from the deepest part of the curve to the ruler's edge).

[Lee]

Hello and thank you Ken.  It measures 27" from the notch to the tip of the sword. 

[Lee]

Just wondering if anyone else had input or opinions on the sword blade.   Sorry, I am not familiar with all of the proper sword terminology.   The tang is unsigned.   I have had several Japanese swords over the years, my father brought two back from Japan during WWII, and one that I wish I still owned that had what I believe is referred to as the "Three Cedar Trees" temper line.  Also had one brought back from the Aleutian Islands during WWII.

[BjornLundin]

As members already told, the blade could be of value and of interest. Could be something Good here. Im not the right person but even I can see the potential. The blade needs obviously a polish, try to look att it from different angels in either sunlight or from a single led light source. I have No idea of school, maybe Osaka region? 

[Shugyosha]

I think I can see a hint of koshi sori which, with the o kissaki might point to a koto Nambokucho era blade...or a later blade done in that style. 🙂

 

Definitely worth some further research.
 

 

[16k]

I tend to agree with you there, John. I would have thought late Nanbokucho, early Muromachi from the sugata.

[ChrisW]

I can only echo what others have said. I think it looks promising though.

[SAS]

I agree with what has been said above, worth at least a window polish.

[lonely panet]

imho 

 

BEYOND economic repair

[SAS]

Just now, Hamish said:

imho 

 

BEYOND economic repair

Aren't most of them? And yet polishers stay busy...😊

[lonely panet]

check the depth of the pitting on the HA at the yokote and the kissaki. looks rather deep to me!  might loss alot of sugata or kissaki  getting it out, but neither of us are TOGI are we.

 

i had far less  pitting on a yasukuni-to  that i was told by a Togi that is will not polish out. 

[Shugyosha]

I fear you may be right Hamish but it's in the USA so getting it to Ted Tenold should be relatively easy to see if anything can be done with it and for a pointer towards a possible attribution which would help form a decision as to whether the work would be worth the cost.

[Gakusee]

From the minimum I can see, I would err on Shinto/ ShinShinto made in the fashion of Nanbokucho. 
 

May I suggest that you grab an online diagram of a Japanese sword and its parts as well as a glossary of key terms so that you are clear what is being discussed and we have a productive chat. 
 

Surprised no one has suggested it yet but you should:

- measure the blade kasane / thickness: if 5-6mm then could theoretically be Nanbokucho (if things below also stack up) but if 7-8mm+ you are clearly likely looking at a newer blade 

- look at the hada: the skin of the steel on the side above the hamon. To me it looks too uniform in one of the pictures: a sign of a newer blade, generally (let us not go into the subtleties of fine Rai or Awataguchi here). The more diverse and rich the hada, generally the more likely you are to be in the older period or be confronted with one of the Shinto masters

- look at the boshi: to me it looks like it follows the fukura, ie the curve of the blade tip. If indeed the boshi is so simple, it points to non-Kamakura usually 

- another small sign: look at the shinogi-ji end check if the hada there is straight (masame) or not. Straight, ceteris paribus, equals newer. 
- compare the kasane of the nakago vs the kasane of the blade to establish how any polishes it has seen 

 

And there are other things to look out for (such as the mune shape, how the hamon starts at the machi, etc) but the above basics should give you a general direction. If the blade is older, looks to have interesting hataraki and jigane, generally it might be more valuable and worthy of polish. If newer, the fact that it is shortened and without a mei generally works against you. Anyway, good to start this discussion and hopefully it leads to something good. 
 

[SAS]

The pitting does look pretty deep, but we are only looking at photos and not the sword; as to who has better judgement as to results, i can't judge yours, and it would be courteous of you not to judge mine. A sword can be loved even with pits; nothing in this world is perfect.

[16k]

8 hours ago, Gakusee said:

From the minimum I can see, I would err on Shinto/ ShinShinto made in the fashion of Nanbokucho. 
 

May I suggest that you grab an online diagram of a Japanese sword and its parts as well as a glossary of key terms so that you are clear what is being discussed and we have a productive chat. 
 

Surprised no one has suggested it yet but you should:

- measure the blade kasane / thickness: if 5-6mm then could theoretically be Nanbokucho (if things below also stack up) but if 7-8mm+ you are clearly likely looking at a newer blade 

- look at the hada: the skin of the steel on the side above the hamon. To me it looks too uniform in one of the pictures: a sign of a newer blade, generally (let us not go into the subtleties of fine Rai or Awataguchi here). The more diverse and rich the hada, generally the more likely you are to be in the older period or be confronted with one of the Shinto masters

- look at the boshi: to me it looks like it follows the fukura, ie the curve of the blade tip. If indeed the boshi is so simple, it points to non-Kamakura usually 

- another small sign: look at the shinogi-ji end check if the hada there is straight (masame) or not. Straight, ceteris paribus, equals newer. 
- compare the kasane of the nakago vs the kasane of the blade to establish how any polishes it has seen 

 

And there are other things to look out for (such as the mune shape, how the hamon starts at the machi, etc) but the above basics should give you a general direction. If the blade is older, looks to have interesting hataraki and jigane, generally it might be more valuable and worthy of polish. If newer, the fact that it is shortened and without a mei generally works against you. Anyway, good to start this discussion and hopefully it leads to something good. 
 

Well, looking at the nakago patina, it is true that I have a hard time believing it could be as old as Nanbokucho. You are probably right the it is Shinshinto after Nanbokucho sugata.

[Gakusee]

14 hours ago, 16k said:

Well, looking at the nakago patina, it is true that I have a hard time believing it could be as old as Nanbokucho. You are probably right the it is Shinshinto after Nanbokucho sugata.

JP, not really the right approach. One should only really focus on Nakago patina with ubu swords or swords which are slightly Suriage and there is still a Mei visible or there are evident traces of the original old part of the nakago remaining.
All the rest is pseudo science as even if the sword is old, if it got shortened in early Edo, the Nakago will have a patina from early Edo and so on. There are cases where old swords had their Nakago “reworked” relatively recently. For instance, I had one such sword, which bore the Mei of an Oei Bizen smith but the NBTHK did not approve of it. The Mei was removed, the Nakago - repatinated professionally by the previous owner and the blade ultimately papered to Yoshioka Ichimonji. The Nakago work was done in the last 15-20 years, before my custodianship, but I had the full paper trail. If one looked at the patina, they would form the wrong views. 
 

Nakago and patina are their own area of expertise, where focus and attention need to be paid. One needs to look at the blade in its entirety and form a congruous view with the composite picture in mind. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[16k]

I know that, Michael.

 

But look at the picture where you see the whole sugata. There is a curve at the machi that makes me think, granted, I may be 100% wrong , that the nakago we’re seing is the original one, maybe only shortened a bit to fit some mountings. I think the mekugi ana may actually Be the original one and just the jiri was altered. If , and only if I’m right, then here we have the original patina for an originally mumei sword.

 

Of course, it could actually be ō-suriage and that patina much younger than the blade. You guys are the experts, not me. 

[Lee]

My thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge.   

[Markdd]

On 11/15/2020 at 11:45 AM, Gakusee said:

From the minimum I can see, I would err on Shinto/ ShinShinto made in the fashion of Nanbokucho. 
 

May I suggest that you grab an online diagram of a Japanese sword and its parts as well as a glossary of key terms so that you are clear what is being discussed and we have a productive chat. 
 

Surprised no one has suggested it yet but you should:

- measure the blade kasane / thickness: if 5-6mm then could theoretically be Nanbokucho (if things below also stack up) but if 7-8mm+ you are clearly likely looking at a newer blade 

- look at the hada: the skin of the steel on the side above the hamon. To me it looks too uniform in one of the pictures: a sign of a newer blade, generally (let us not go into the subtleties of fine Rai or Awataguchi here). The more diverse and rich the hada, generally the more likely you are to be in the older period or be confronted with one of the Shinto masters

- look at the boshi: to me it looks like it follows the fukura, ie the curve of the blade tip. If indeed the boshi is so simple, it points to non-Kamakura usually 

- another small sign: look at the shinogi-ji end check if the hada there is straight (masame) or not. Straight, ceteris paribus, equals newer. 
- compare the kasane of the nakago vs the kasane of the blade to establish how any polishes it has seen 

 

And there are other things to look out for (such as the mune shape, how the hamon starts at the machi, etc) but the above basics should give you a general direction. If the blade is older, looks to have interesting hataraki and jigane, generally it might be more valuable and worthy of polish. If newer, the fact that it is shortened and without a mei generally works against you. Anyway, good to start this discussion and hopefully it leads to something good. 
 

very helpful points for use newbies