Matsu stamp

[davidequis]

The Yamagami brother’s matsu stamp mystery.

 

I have come across several references to traditional Japanese sword smithing where materials are mentioned.

 

There is the obvious tamahagane, but they also mention pine charcoal as essential in nihonto production.

 

This pine charcoal is called matsu-zumi 

 

Articles state that in ww2 the army supplied tamahagane to rjt smiths while the province was required to supply matsu-zumi.

 

Articles also state that tamahagane was in short supply and strictly controlled. One would expect that matsu-zumi would also be scarce.

 

Perhaps, in the mix of materials and methods used in war production, identifying pine charcoal as a material was important.

 

Perhaps, like the military star-stamp, the matsu stamp is the A seal of traditional materials/methods. 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

David,

It's an interesting proposal.  You'll notice all the Matsu stamps are from the beginning of the RJT program, 1942, through 1943.  So far, we have no Matsu in 1944 or 45.  But we do have katakana.  So, you're idea would work if the industry supply of matsu-zumi was out or severely limited by that time.  The katakana could indicate a different charcoal was used. 

 

The purists of IJA regulations regarding RJT ops, might balk at the idea.  All three blades we have with katakana are also star stamped.  However, we have already seen that mil-specs on sword fittings, even sword quality was allowed to drastically veer from the regs at the end of the war, so I wouldn't rule the idea out of a blade rating a star even if non-regulation charcoal was used in 1944/1945.

[Bruce Pennington]

While reading the book recommended by Peter - @BIG - Book found HERE - I came across this discussion about a survey done in 1933 looking for available tamahagane.  In it, he discussed the various grades of tamahagane:

 

“High quality tamahagane is sold out, there are only stocks below the 4th quality level.” It should be noted that there are different qualities of tamahagane crude steel as a result of the steel production in the tatara furnace, which are briefly listed here: tsuru (“crane”) = Special Grade, matsu (“pine”) = First Grade, take (“bamboo”) = Second Grade, ume (“plum”) A = Third Grade, ume (“plum”) B = Fourth Grade, Off Grade, Others.

Maxein, Otto. Samurai Swords for the Material Battle . Books on Demand. Kindle Edition.

 

I think David might have been in the ballpark with the "pine" thought, but maybe it's a stamp showing the grade - First Grade - of steel the Yamagami Brothers were using in their blades.  This clicked for me after we've discovered the RJT star stamp was an Army stamp, not just an RJT stamp (although no one else was using it on blades except RJT), but it was a stamp verifying the fact that the steel used was Army-provided steel (which for the RJT program had to be tamahagane).  So...... could this Matsu stamp be something along that line?  Maybe their particular inspector had stamps for grades (although we don't see any blades marked with other grades) or maybe it was put there by the brothers, for marketing/bragging rights, to highlight the high grade of tamahagane used in their blades?

[george trotter]

That's interesting Bruce.

Was the matsu stamp used by the Yamagami brothers to "advertise" their RJT swords as  being made of "matsu" grade tamahagane...could be.

 

I only just read this here and you've already got me wondering a few things...

We know from Kishida's Yasukuni book p.92 that the Yasukuni tatara graded its output this way (also see photo of tamahagane in boxes on p.93), but, while I presume the RJT scheme which was managed by the same management as the Yasukunito, used the same grading system,  it would be good to have some confirmation.

If the RJT scheme did grade the same,  why didn't the RJT scheme  put the stamp on other 'matsu' quality RJT swords?  ....and why only matsu quality?

Just had another idea on this point...unless the Army Officer Club sales counter staff who sold RJT swords to officers had a sign stating that these swords are "matsu quality tamahagane blades" - how would the officers know the meaning of the matsu stamp and if not...why bother putting  it on?

Another question is whether the Yamagami brothers put the stamp on?

As the  matsu stamp is only seen on Yamagami RJT blades  it "suggests" that this is so. But as the RJT scheme handled the sales/advertising...why would they bother,  or did they discuss some sales tactics with the Officer Club sales guys?

 

So, you definitely raise a few questions here Bruce...(my head is starting to hurt). It will be interesting to see if members come up with any answers/opinions/evidence.

I'm looking forward to them...

Regards,

[george trotter]

Hi Bruce,

Just came back to have a look at all the input from members...nothing!

Must be some knowledge out there....?

[Bruce Pennington]

I’ll run it by @cabowen.  See if he’s heard of it.

[davidequis]

On 6/2/2021 at 2:39 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

While reading the book recommended by Peter - @BIG - Book found HERE - I came across this discussion about a survey done in 1933 looking for available tamahagane.  In it, he discussed the various grades of tamahagane:

 

“High quality tamahagane is sold out, there are only stocks below the 4th quality level.” It should be noted that there are different qualities of tamahagane crude steel as a result of the steel production in the tatara furnace, which are briefly listed here: tsuru (“crane”) = Special Grade, matsu (“pine”) = First Grade, take (“bamboo”) = Second Grade, ume (“plum”) A = Third Grade, ume (“plum”) B = Fourth Grade, Off Grade, Others.

Maxein, Otto. Samurai Swords for the Material Battle . Books on Demand. Kindle Edition.

 

I think David might have been in the ballpark with the "pine" thought, but maybe it's a stamp showing the grade - First Grade - of steel the Yamagami Brothers were using in their blades.  This clicked for me after we've discovered the RJT star stamp was an Army stamp, not just an RJT stamp (although no one else was using it on blades except RJT), but it was a stamp verifying the fact that the steel used was Army-provided steel (which for the RJT program had to be tamahagane).  So...... could this Matsu stamp be something along that line?  Maybe their particular inspector had stamps for grades (although we don't see any blades marked with other grades) or maybe it was put there by the brothers, for marketing/bragging rights, to highlight the high grade of tamahagane used in their blades?

Hi Bruce, have only just caught up with this - amazing detective work.

 

if you look at the chart your created of the blade with the matsu stamp, the last 3 have a different stamp. Do those characters match other grades of tamahagani?

 

I am more convinced that the matsu is a grade/quality stamp not a random army stamp

[Bruce Pennington]

15 hours ago, davidequis said:

the last 3 have a different stamp. Do those characters match other grades of tamahagani?

David,

I don't think the other kanji fit anything along the line of these grades.  The kanji for plum, the Second Grade, is: 李, at least in modern Japanese.  The First Grade, bamboo is: 竹.  Tsuru, the Special Grade is: 鶴, again modern kanji.  The ones you are seeing on my chart are katakana which are single sounds, mostly used to spell words with Western origins, as I understand it. 

But it was worth investigating!

 

I am with you, in that I think the Yamagami brothers were using the "matsu" to advertise the high quality of their product.  I got a reply from Chris Bowen on the question.  While he didn't have any hard evidence either way, like us, he doesn't feel it would have been an official Army stamp but more like a stamp used at the forge.  From Chris:

"- the army supplied the tamahagane to the RJT smiths as you know. My understanding is they supplied one grade, not several, at least for contracted blades. Commercial sales would surely have enabled various grades to be purchased however. The lack of any Tsuru or other stamps which would correlate with the grade of tamahagane is glaring.

- there was no requirement for army blades to specify any grade of steel. No one else was doing it- no doubt others would have followed suit if this was advantageous.

- it is more likely that this is some sort of acceptance stamp, either privately at the Yamagami forge, or used locally. It could also signify something else related to the location or other private and unique feature important to the Yamagami forge."

[george trotter]

I agree with you...as the matsu stamp is only seen on Yamagami smith tangs I think it must be a mark restricted to them alone. Whether it is their  sign that they only used "first grade matsu iron" is unproven, but in the absence of its use by other smiths or any sign of the other iron grades being marked...I'd say Yamagami brother's mark...possibly (probably) advertising their use of matsu grade iron...so well spotted Bruce (assuming this is correct...if not correct, Bruce is being a naughty boy again!).

Hope this helps, not sure, maybe....(my head is hurting again Bruce).

[Bruce Pennington]

Thought I would update this conversation, as we've since found 3 other smiths with the Matsu stamp - Chikafusa, Kiyokuni, and Tsugunobu; all on 1943 blades:

 

Matsu

1941, July	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	106  (RS ana)	Slough
1941, Sep	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	249  Type 98	Trotter Survey, no pics
1941, Sep	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	308  Type 98	Trotter Collection
1941, Dec	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	566  RS Model	Windy NMB
?	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 61 RS	Trotter Survey, no pics
?	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 97	NMB
1942, Feb	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 542 RS star	Trotter Survey, no pics
1942, Apr	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 11 RS	Trotter Survey, no pics
1942, Nov	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 422 ? star	Trotter Survey, no pics
1942, Nov	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 433 RS star	Trotter Survey, no pics
1942, Oct	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 451 RS	Davidequis NMB
1942, Dec	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 382 T98	Quest Master W-A
1942, Dec	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 577 RS star	MacTheWhopper NMB
1943, Jan	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 508 T98 star	Trotter Survey, no pics
1943, Feb	Nagano	Kiyokuni (RJT)	松 16	Ray Singer, NMB
1943, Feb	Nagano	Chikafusa (RJT)	松 20	Bangbangsan, NMB
1943, Mar	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 618 RS star	Schmucker Collection
1943, Mar	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 819 RS star	Vajo, Trotter Survey
1943, Mar	Nagano	Kiyokuni (RJT)	松 12	Guest Rayhan, NMB
1943, Mar	Gunma	Tsugunobu (RJT)	松 22 RS Star	Bangbangsan, NMB  RS
1943, May	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 1080 RS star	Trotter Collection, イ403 on fittings
1943, May	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 1082 RS star	baldi1942 NMB
1943, Oct	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 1377 RS star	Trotter Survey, no pics
1943, Nov	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 443 RS star	? NMB