Marius Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 Dear All, I have found this today on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-Sword-HAGI ... 240%3A1318 the seller is probably one of our Forum members and thank God for such sellers on eBay. He/she discloses a hagire and other flaws, which a careless polisher has inflicted on the sword. While I can understand that careless (shall I call it incompetent) polishing can cause the loss of niku and exposure of shintetsu, I cannot understand how bad polish could lead to hagire... Straightening a bent blade might cause haigire, a cut with such a sword could cause it, but polishing? I would assume that the "polisher" who has ruined this sword has done something else or that the hagier was virtually invisible in the old polish (although this is hard to believe). What do you think?
Stephen Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 a very interesting question, hope one of boards togi's chime in on this, how can a polish cause a crack?
Jean Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 Polish in itself not (I presume), but the first stage being to straighten blades which has been bent , depending on the hamon, Yakiire, it must be possible (In My Most Humble opinion) but once again I am not a togishi, Ted could tell us more
shan Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 Hi all, Firstly,I am not a togoshi. But I have to say that it would surprise me greatly if the polisher could cause Hagire on a blade that was not already potentially there. I have seen bashed and abused blades that had chips in the Ha up to 5-6mm deep that exhibited no signs of Hagire whatsoever. the seller states the item is not his & IMHO It didn`t look like it needed a polish anyway. But who is to say that from the time that those images “before” were taken several years and owners and levels of care since 1989 had not passed? It could also be that shinsa didn`t see it at Kantei. I would have thought that being subjected to excessive stress may cause hagire and thermal shock may also play a part. But to bend a blade so hard to cause it during a polish.WOW that had to have the fault inherent to the blade didn`t it? P.s I have no problem with hagire as i have no intentions of cutting with the sword again.I will expect the price to reflect this fault ,but imagine the blades that would be lost if we all said NO to hagire. Regards shan
hybridfiat Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 Is anyone else having trouble getting the pics?
Bungo Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 does the hagiri line has to show on BOTH side to make it a hagiri? milt
Stephen Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 does the hagiri line has to show on BOTH side to make it a hagiri? I think not, most likly it was there pre polish, ive seen hargiri missed by two shinsa teams due different conditions.
sencho Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 Doesn't this style of listing remind you of a dealers website..? there is a clue to who is listing this.... I haven't had direct dealings, but as far as I know, I think Danny is as honest and reputable as they come... this listing demonstrates this perfectly... Cheers!
shan Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 Hi again, How come there are only 2 seals on that Kanteisho paper? i thought that 5 was the norm.Was this a disagreement or a small shinsa. Shinsa decisions can be turned around. I read on a Japanese forum of a Japanese man who submitted a mumei Orsoraku Tanto for shinsa and they Pink slipped it for some reason that they never made clear.He took it up to the offices of the NTHK and protested. Withing the next 2 weeks he had it papered to quite a high level and an apology.I am trying to find the forum because there were a lot of people having the same problems with shinsa.I am not saying they always get it wrong but they don`t always get it right either according to this other forum i mentioned.So perhaps the panel were not in agreement about some aspect of this blade in the first place. As far as i know Hagire is any form of crack that eminates from the ha and goes towards the mune. It can be visable one side or both. I think at a guess,it is called a "fatal flaw" because it is a huge weakness and i would guess in battle, if your blade broke bacause of this weakness then that could be Fatal for you.yaki-ware can go anyway and is in the hamon usually(a tempering flaw)its another considered Fatal Flaw. Regards shan
Ted Tenold Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 The polishing process itself is highly improbably to cause a hagire. There are times when heavy pressure is placed on the sword to acheive a polish, but there's technique involved that minimizes actually flexing and weighing down or bowing the blade. I feel it would take very *very* excessive pressure while polishing to flex or stress the yakiba sufficiently to inflict this kind of damage. So much in fact that the amount of pressure required is likely to break stones too, which in many cases are quite delicate, or fracture them under the steel causing other forms of damage. If the blade needed to be straightened before the process, then absolutely yes, this process is always dicey and has a big pucker factor involved. I've straightened a lot of swords, some with some very bad bends and twists, and some with only minor ones. They are all subject to risk. Fortunately, I've had no failures, but in **every** case, I warn the owner that although I take all the precautions I can to prevent damage, it can occur and they must understand and accept that risk. Each sword is different as well, and with the art, different periods and regions will also have different physical characteristics to consider. Some are thicker or thinner, some flex very easily while others are very stiff, the width of the yakiba, period of the steel, origin of the steel, location of the bend, etc.. There are precautions that can be taken to minimize stress and make the blade more ammenably prepared for the process, but all in all, it's still a very risky process and not to be taken haphazardly. I would offer also that many hagire can be *very* difficult to see as well, and may not show up until the polishing process begins, or even progresses to a point somewhere during the process. If the sword has evidence of use in cutting with deep or lateral scratches in the ha, any one of them could be glanced over and mistaken for a scratch instead of a crack. As a point of caution to everyone, I once heard a disturbing story that hagire could be camoflaged by cutting into the edge of plywood sheet to scratch the area heavily. Obviously, the hagire would not appear again without polishing away the scratches or a very powerful scope. Incidentally, I use a 30x inspection scope to examine swords with suspicious lines in the ha before commencing polish. If I can't establish a firm judgement with that, then a light window is polished in the region to further examine it before commencing the work. Was it there before but covered or too hard to see? Was the blade straightened, or somehow mishandled? It seems obvious by the text that the owner and seller are unhappy and assign blame to the togishi. I also don't read the text that it was done while actually polishing persay, rather than it came back from the polisher like this. Damage to the shirasaya points to more mishandling, but where and how? Who knows. We have to take the description at face value and kudos to Danny and the owner for pointing out the flaw and fully describing the sword as is. I think the bottom line here is that the polisher apparently didn't see it, or if it was seen, the process wasn't immediately halted and the owner contacted for a decision to continue or abort. Okay, so recognizing hagire... To answer Milt's question; No, I've never seen a hagire that didn't go all the way through. Cracks travel from the very edge back and propogate from the scantest material at the greatest stress point, back toward the mune. They can be longer on one side than another, but I've yet to see one that did not show on both sides. Hagire are nearly always dead straight and 90 degrees perpendicular to the ha. This is because of the molecular pressure in the body of the blade pulling directly against the ha either during yakiire, or stress caused thereafter. A point to understand is that Ububa is very necessary for reason of manufacture. During yakiire, the edge is flattened quite widely throughout the length of the sword. The reason is that when quenched, the blade takes on the curve due to differening rates of cooling which in turn places molecular pressure on the yakiba as the back of the blade pulls against it. If the ha were sharpened or very thin, it more easily cracks and propogates that crack like a zipper in the quench. There can be hagire that run at slight angles or with linear changes. These are more likely sustained in edge contact damage or from the top of a hakobori (chip). They are no less a fatal flaw though the blade did survive the engagement without catastrophic failure (completey snapping). If one is found, it is likely there may be more. True, one is all it takes, but in the odd chance that it's very short and possibly correctable, look very carefully for more that may not. Hagire rarely travel past the habuchi. Once reaching the habuchi the steel is ductile and the stress is relieved into that ductility. But, that ductility won't necessarily support further stress to the body of the blade without tearing (snapping) thus the increased likelyhood of unpredictable catastrophic failure. So if you see evidence of cutting, look first at the "scratches" that stop in the ha or habuchi first, then more carefully at all the others which may be on top of the hagire. If it appears to be a lone scratch traveling past the habuchi into or across the ji, it's likely to be just that; a scratch. Also check both sides of the blade. Often the cutting angle (hasuji) of the user may have been poor and the blade may have traveled through the target somewhat heavier on one side of the blade leaving the opposing side less scratched or with shorter marks. Define and suspect accordingly. A lateral bend is an *obvious* and direct result of bad hasuji. Last, there are forms of "surface" cracks that can rarely be seen. Where they can occur is in or near the tops of lobes in formations like choji or gunome. The reason is that there can also be surface tension during heat treating that pulls these cracks in the surface of harder regions forming in the yakiba. They would more accurately be described as material seperations, but look like cracks and should be viewed with some scepticism. They rarely travel deep into the surface, but can go all the way through as well. They range from straigh"ish" to crescent shaped but are generally high in the yakiba and don't reach the edge. These are just a few recommendations. Always triple check however, because like everything in Japanese swords, your results may vary.
Jean Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 If one is found, it is likely there may be more. True, Ted. AMino Kanetsune I had bought with NTHK Kanteisho had 2 Hagire appeared after polishing.
Ted Tenold Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 I once counted 14 on a single blade. It was a Koto period katana too. Makes one wonder how the heck it made it so long without being tossed into the pile for reforging.
IanB Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 All, I have a feeling that the key to this interesting mystery lies in the fact that the blade had considerable niku prior to polishing but hadn't afterwards. Could it be that the blade was highly stressed in some way prior to polishing (perhaps by having been straightened) but was had not actually cracked becaue the metal in the yakiba was not quite stressed sufficiently for it to give way. During polishing metal was removed, concentrating that stress onto less and less metal until it reached failure point. I recall a conversation with a modern smith who had a liking for hirazukuri katana but found them difficult to sell because they were prone to suddenly developing hagiri, often after some considerable time. Presumably caused by thermal shock or some other external influence. This would suggest that the extra metal in the region of the shinogi has the effect of dissapating the stress to some extent. Ian bottomley
pcfarrar Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 I can't understand why this sword was repolished. The original polish was more than adequate.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 I can't understand why this sword was repolished. The original polish was more than adequate. *Might* be problems are related to what occured to the sword in between original polish and the present one, possibly also before the Togishi put his hands on it. I.E. in which conditions the sword reached the Togi. But it's just wild guessing... Anyway I wonder if the Togishi didn't advise about the possibility to have shingane exposed...
shan Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 Hi, I have also read somewhere that a sharp knock or hit on the Mune can cause hagire in a blade that was otherwise flawless. I have no idea of verifying this, but it seems quite probable to me because of the characteristics of tempered edges. I still don`t see how, in times of peace, this is still condidered so bad though,especially if it is not really noticable. I understand the need for perfection, but i would be very surprised if anything out there was absolutly perfect.We all have to compromise to a certain degree (well i do at my level of collecting anyway) as long as it were not a "hidden surprize" and the price was based on all the flaws,it would not worry me unduly. Anyone with unsalable items that have Hagire or other fatal flaws can contact me with a sensible price and i may well buy it if i like it. Regards Shan
Bungo Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 " To answer Milt's question; No, I've never seen a hagire that didn't go all the way through. Cracks travel from the very edge back and propogate from the scantest material at the greatest stress point, back toward the mune. They can be longer on one side than another, but I've yet to see one that did not show on both sides " ........................................................................ there's always a reason why I asked. I have a sword with a very faint line that looks like a hagiri but the other side shows absolutely nothing. A few old timers looked it over and came to the conclusion that it could be an " opening " of the grain,but it does looks like a hagiri ( except it's on one side only ). Typical books show what a hagiri looks like but none mention it's one side or both . I just presumed it's has to show on both side of the ha. milt
Stephen Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 not as learned as Ted but i have seen where you can see it on one side only, maybe under so Xpower it would show but not with the eye. FWIW
Ted Tenold Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 Good point Stephen, just because you can't see it on one side doesn't mean it's not there so very judicious checking may be needed.
Ted Tenold Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 All, I have a feeling that the key to this interesting mystery lies in the fact that the blade had considerable niku prior to polishing but hadn't afterwards. Could it be that the blade was highly stressed in some way prior to polishing (perhaps by having been straightened) but was had not actually cracked becaue the metal in the yakiba was not quite stressed sufficiently for it to give way. During polishing metal was removed, concentrating that stress onto less and less metal until it reached failure point. I recall a conversation with a modern smith who had a liking for hirazukuri katana but found them difficult to sell because they were prone to suddenly developing hagiri, often after some considerable time. Presumably caused by thermal shock or some other external influence. This would suggest that the extra metal in the region of the shinogi has the effect of dissapating the stress to some extent.Ian bottomley Although plausible, I'd say highly improbable. I'd agree that this could happen or at the very least, be a contributing factor. Steel is capible of very wonky things sometimes. I also concur on the subject of Hirazukuri. We very rarely see any hirazukuri katana outside of special works. The geometry of the blade simply isn't suited to supporting the stress and torque that a shinogizukuri can once in a very long work. So few extant examples is a testament to this. If they were a better weapon, 1000 years of engineering experience would have shown it. Molecularly speaking there is a great deal of tension in a sword. The spine pulls against the edge. The extra width of shinogizukuri builds the niku (meat) into the edge for more material to distribute and tolerate the stresses. As a blade is polished down, ideally *all* the surfaces are polished thus diminishing all the material in proportion as well as the tension. As an aside, I once found a lovely Osuriage Hirazukuri Katana. Very nicely forged and a lovely yakiba with a Kinpun mei. Closer examination showed it had several hagire that were very very faint. It was obviously Koto, and was well done. Again the mystery is were they always there and unseen, or appeared with time? Who knows. Draw tempering is is the process of relieving some of these stresses (which is the true definition of "tempering") in the blade after the main quench (which is technically "selective hardening"), and is common among steel manufacturing processes. *edited for clarity*
Ted Tenold Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 I have also read somewhere that a sharp knock or hit on the Mune can cause hagire in a blade that was otherwise flawless. I have no idea of verifying this, but it seems quite probable to me because of the characteristics of tempered edges. This can indeed cause hagire, but is likely to snap the blade altogether, the degree of force being the deciding factor. A swordsmith I know destroys a blade when it shows a flaw or has a quality issue. He rolls the blade over and strikes the mune against the anvil. From what I understand this method is common practice. On this note, there are many swords that exhibit cuts or battle scars on the mune and/or shinogi. More often than not (if they are period "battle scars" and not marks of modern idiocy) there will be efforts to leave these marks rather than try to repair them. They are a great testament to the blades durability and reliability. I still don`t see how, in times of peace, this is still condidered so bad though,especially if it is not really noticable.I understand the need for perfection, but i would be very surprised if anything out there was absolutly perfect.We all have to compromise to a certain degree (well i do at my level of collecting anyway) as long as it were not a "hidden surprize" and the price was based on all the flaws,it would not worry me unduly. I can see your point, and when considering the sword purely as an art piece, could argue this idea. But first and foremost, these are weapons and must exhibit the quality and character of a reliable weapon. The artisitic merits vary greatly between pieces obviously, but they must all *be* and remain to be, what they were meant to be. A one armed man is not an archer because he holds a bow. Anyone with unsalable items that have Hagire or other fatal flaws can contact me with a sensible price and i may well buy it if i like it. I'm sure you'll have many suitors come calling. :lol:
Brian Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 Just a few quick examples: An antique and collectible matchlock rifle with a welded shut flash hole:- Will never be fired again, and yet the flaw makes it undesirable and far less collectible An antique camera:- If broken and non-functional, reduced collectibility and desirability even though no-one was going to use it for photos. Porcelain such as Wedgewood etc:- Unlikely to be used for its purpose, but with a chipped rim it loses value and not collectible. The above are all overlooked slightly if the item itself is a very rare example or unique to the point that better examples are not common. I just use these as an example of the same thing in swords. A hagire is a fatal flaw even if the item is not going to be used anymore. The scarcer and more desirable the sword is..the more flaws are overlooked, but at the end of the day it is something that is avoided if possible where you can. Not to say people should toss blades with hagire, just giving related examples to show how this is the same as done in the entire field of collectible antiques and art. Brian
DirkO Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 I think it's more of a mental thing : people tend to like things more if those items are still capable of fullfilling their destiny. Even if they'll never be used to do what they're designed to do, the possibility has to be there. And like Brian so aptly pointed out, this is indeed applicable to practically every field in antiques.
Bungo Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 there's always exception............. the Koryu Korean ceramics........ almost all have cracks, repairs and collectors just look " beyond " that. Brian, you left/lost your sense of humor in Tokyo. milt
remzy Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 My personnal impression is that the flaw was always there but that the techniques of polish used before now werent sufficient enough to show the flaw, i doubt that the seller meant to say that the flaw is the fault of the togi, but i think that the togi is responsible for us finaly being able to notice it. Only shows the skills of the togi, beside, i dont see how you could cause this sort of troma to a sword when polishing it, especially since the previous state before polish wasnt so bad. Edit: nvm i now see that he realy think that its the togi's fault.
shan Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 Hi,Bear in mind that there appears to be no timescale shown on the "before" and "after" images,so the "before" could be in 1989 or even "before" 1989 for all we know.(or perhaps i missed something) But i do agree that unless all attributes of the blade are obscured, i see no reason to polish. I doubt the samurai polished them all the time or otherwise they would not last very long at all. A 700 year old sword approx 1mm thick? now that would be a very flexible sword indeed. regards shan
Mark Green Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 Hi Gang, Great subject. I first give a big DITTO to Ted. Great job. I feel that it is very unlikely that this crack would have been caused by the polish. This sword looked in about 70-80% polish, before it went to polish. So I doubt that a whole lot of pressure was needed for it's last polish. But, I wasn't there. I say to Shan, jump on this one sword bro. This is a big name sword that you can pick up for likely a tenth of it's pre hagire value. If the crack doesn't bother you, and you like the look of this sword. BAG IT!!!! I think is is a great looking sword, but I'm a huge nei lover. I feel the pain of it's owner oh too well. I have seen many great old swords with hagire. Many that could not be seen with the naked eye. Many that only show up in the last stages of polish. I know that many big cracks can, and do happen during straightining. So it is always a cross your fingers kind of process. How those guys do it with the two sticks is so cool. My friend has done dozens of swords with another process, and has never cracked a one. And some of these swords looked looked like a snake's back. It takes a knack. I just hope the owner can recover some of his/her loss. Mark G
Jean Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 I doubt the samurai polished them all the time or otherwise they would not last very long at all. Too tired to open a new topic : Just thnk to this What were the reasons a samurai would have had to have his sword polish...? What kind of polish/result did he expected? Answer : Only Practical ==> not unlike cleaning a gun after a battle ==> a good craftman must have good tools. Samuraï=duty==> his weapons mut be always at their top using ability for serving his Lord. A rusty bent dented sword needs togishi help ....BTW, that was the success of Mino swords, not artistic but reliable, cut well ability and did not ben easily ===> did not need often to be "polish" meaning :eliminating deep rust, removing dents/chips, straightening....
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 I have also read somewhere that a sharp knock or hit on the Mune can cause hagire in a blade that was otherwise flawless. I have no idea of verifying this, but it seems quite probable to me because of the characteristics of tempered edges. This can indeed cause hagire, but is likely to snap the blade altogether, the degree of force being the deciding factor. Would add lateral stresses as well, not only on the Mune, so to deflect the opponent's blow with the side of your weapon. On this note, there are many swords that exhibit cuts or battle scars on the mune and/or shinogi. More often than not (if they are period "battle scars" and not marks of modern idiocy) there will be efforts to leave these marks rather than try to repair them. They are a great testament to the blades durability and reliability. Maybe also an heritage of a practical use, as to say they are a good marks to see where to watch the hamon after the next time you use it in order to see if a damned hidden hagiri previosly unseeble got a little bigger.
remzy Posted November 28, 2008 Report Posted November 28, 2008 I doubt the samurai polished them all the time or otherwise they would not last very long at all. Too tired to open a new topic : Just thnk to this What were the reasons a samurai would have had to have his sword polish...? What kind of polish/result did he expected? Answer : Only Practical ==> not unlike cleaning a gun after a battle ==> a good craftman must have good tools. Samuraï=duty==> his weapons mut be always at their top using ability for serving his Lord. A rusty bent dented sword needs togishi help ....BTW, that was the success of Mino swords, not artistic but reliable, cut well ability and did not ben easily ===> did not need often to be "polish" meaning :eliminating deep rust, removing dents/chips, straightening.... I beg to differ Jean, i love Mino den, sanbonsugi hamons are among my favorite! I absolutly adore the Tadakuni wak i have over here. But yes, mino swords are quite stiff and sturdy in general! sorry for the off topic.
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