translation help

[kmilano]

Hi, my name is Kris and I'm just a beginner with Nihonto.

This is my first wakizashi from open internet auction here in Poland. It was so cheap so I can't belive it's real (about 220 USD). Maby it's a problem with polishing and two craks You can see at the scan?

My private googling about Mei guided me to Bishu Osafune Sukesada(!?). Any suggestion or comment is very welcome. Thank You.

p. s. What a Great Forum :D

[pcfarrar]

You have the translation correct. It looks to be a late muromachi period sukesada. Probably a Kazuchimono (mass produced sword).

[kmilano]

Thank You wery much!

[Nobody]

Do not rush to conclusions. The mei does not say Sukesada.

The mei says only 備州長舩住人 , which means a resident in Osafune of Bishu.

[Brian]

Is there nothing on the other side?

This mei "Bishu Osafune Ju Nin..." is often followed on the other side of the nakago by " Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada"

At least on mine it is.. Could be a number of other smiths though..such as ....Nagamitsu Saku etc.

What is the meaning of the "nin" part, and why is it not used very often?

 

Brian

[Nobody]

In that context, "Junin (住人)" is one noun, which just means a resident.

[DirkO]

Is there nothing on the other side?

This mei "Bishu Osafune Ju Nin..." is often followed on the other side of the nakago by " Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada"

At least on mine it is..

Brian

 

I thought "Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada" was not that common, but the other Sukesadas were ?

[kmilano]

The other side is clean.

[Brian]

Dirk,

It is the "nin" that points to one of the other Sukesada's. Yokoyama Sukesada is far less common than the many other Sukesadas, but I don't know any of them that signed with the "ju nin..." in their mei. Most just have Bishu Osafune ju Sukesada or a variant of that. When I see the "nin" I think of the Yokoyama mei.

 

Brian

[pcfarrar]

Interesting that the sword in question only has Bishu Osafune ju nin. Is this a Muromachi Kazuchimono or a later Shinto/Shin-Shinto gimei?

[kmilano]

http://www.nihonto.us/Yokoyama%20Sukesada.htm

 

This is the one I've found...

 

Kris

[DirkO]

Here's some info from the former forum :

 

1. Longer signatures which include personal names generally indicate higher quality blades made for a specific order.

2. The use of Bishu rather than Bizen is supposed to indicate a lower quality (bundle sword/mass produced)

3. There was something somewhere about the positioning of the "ju" character before or after Osafune, but I cant remember it or find the reference, someone else may be able to help on that one

As said above these are general points and there are always exceptions : beautiful swords exist with signatures beginning Bishu and some average looking ones with full signatures. As always look at the blade and work before the signature and try to judge it on what you see there.

As said often on this Board : sword quality does confirm the signature. There is an example of a Bishu Osafune Sukesada that is Juyo, proving the point.

 

In general, the Sue Bizen smiths did use a scheme with their signatures that provides a rule of thumb to judge the intended market of their swords.

 

1. Sukesada / Bishu Osafune Sukesada, you will see this on the lowest class of blade. The Juyo above is Hikobeinojo Sukesada who was the earliest of the great Sukesada smiths and he may have been following through on the older period signing style. Not clear. Generally considered mass produced, but there seems to be a lot of variation between really weak stuff and things that will be very nice and what you would expect would be Tokubetsu Hozon... and of course the one Juyo. Very hard to tell, take it on a case by case basis but know it is generally a negative indicator.

 

2. Bizen no Kuni Ju Osafune Sukesada... middle class blade.

 

3. Bizen no Kuni Ju Osafune John Sukesada... in this case, John is signing his personal name, expending special effort and time and attributing it as his personal work in this really big workshop of Sukesada smiths. This indicates a special-made order for a client and is always high class work.

 

4. Bizen no Kuni Ju Osafune John Sukesada Made For Bob... same as above, but they've added the client's name and this is considered the highest form they did.

 

When you scan through the Juyo index, you will see that there are a fair number of daitos signed (2), but I think no tantos. All the tantos from Yosozaemon Sukesada are signed (3).

 

The trick with Osafune is that pre-Sue Bizen the smiths signed "Bizen Osafune Ju Whomever" if they used this pattern, and in Sue Bizen they move the Ju up so it is "Bizen Ju Osafune Whomever." People faking Yosozaemonnojo, Genbeinojo and Hikobeinojo often missed this detail and flipped it around into the "correct" spot which is "wrong" for the Sue Bizen smiths. In the Shinto period the smiths refered to "correct" form but this should be checked.

 

The way the Sue Bizen guys say it, is like they have adopted Osafune into their name. Osafune Sukesada, living in Bizen, rather than Sukesada, living in Osafune town, Bizen province.