katana First post, I need identification?

[Aethel_berht]

So I picked up a Katana mounted in WWII Type 94 Koshirae, I got curious on the blade itself and I need help putting a rough date on the blade. It is a mumei, so unsigned. I'm sure the blade itself dates before WWII, it has the steel grain, Hada, and a Hamon line. Is there any way to date this? The Hamon is very difficult to see, I assume it was mistreated in the past. Sorry, this is my first post so m still fairly unfamiliar with the site.

[PNSSHOGUN]

It looks to be quite old, perhaps 14th/15th century. For anything more informative we will need more detailed shots of the entire blade. Could you also please share some pictures of the Army mounts as well?

[Aethel_berht]

3 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

It looks to be quite old, perhaps 14th/15th century. For anything more informative we will need more detailed shots of the entire blade. Could you also please share some pictures of the Army mounts as well?

Yeah sure! Here is some more photos.

[Aethel_berht]

Heres some extra pictures.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi A.

Definitely an older blade but to know much about how old and from which group of swordsmiths it comes you'll have to track down someone who is knowledgeable and honest to take a look in hand for you.  There is only so much that can be learned from photos.

In case you're new to Nihonto (you don't say), here is a care and handling brochure you would be smart to read at least once.

http://nbthk-ab.org/cleaning-maintenance.php

Blade looks nice.  Grey

[Aethel_berht]

Thanks, i'll definitely get it looked at.  

[16k]

Looks like a Muromachi blade to me. Very nice!

[Aethel_berht]

Thanks for the help,  I figured that the blade was shortened at one point considering the tang and the Machi Okuri.

[Eric M]

nice blade & mounting. what makes you think it is a 94 model? I would have thought it is more an early nice 98

[Aethel_berht]

The guard makes me think its a type 94.

[16k]

And I think you are right! Type 94 guard.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Would need better photos of the Tsuka and Tsuba to determine that.

[Utopianarian]

Kazu-uchi mono from Muromachi 

[16k]

1 hour ago, Utopianarian said:

Kazu-uchi mono from Muromachi 

Interesting!

 

I've always wondered how people make the difference as I’ve never seen an actual one. Can you please elaborate?

[Utopianarian]

Rough masame hada is definitely a big indicator for kazu-uchi mono due to the poor quality steel. I own a few. Here is pic of one next to a zoomed in pic of the sword featured in this discussion.  
    Sue Bizen= kazu-uchi mono

[16k]

Thanks, I learned something new today.

[Utopianarian]

I am taking in as much as I can as well. Still learning always

[ChrisW]

Interesting, add that to the list of things I did not know! (its a very long list.. the more I learn, the less I know.)

[Jean]

In fact, concerning sue Bizen Kazu Uchi Mono, they are forged in Bizen style, pure masame is not sue Bizen style. From time to time, they are for sale on Aoi Art website, check the description, generally the hada is a mix of mokume and itame.

 

Masame hada is very difficult to forge. Very good masame (no flaws) hada is very expensive and sought after. Due to the fact that all layers are folded  in the same direction they are very difficult to solder, thus some collectors consider that longitudinal opening in this case are inherent to masame and not considered as kizu.

The longer the blade the harder good masame is difficult to obtain.

[Utopianarian]

Yes, particularly Yamato Hosho school which are known for masame hada. Ware is acceptable to a certain point (masa-ware) and an important kantei point. But even Hosho was in many cases not 100% masame hada. I know there are many other factors to take into account.

[Gakusee]

Bizen Kaziuchimono do not need to have or even attempt to make masame. It could be larger grained itame nagare too. What of course you guys are right about is the generally low quality and openings in the jihada. The masame in shinogiji is a different indicator of the Muromachi blade and if combined with low quality nagare (some people sometimes mistake nagare for masame) or coarseness, we can probably then identify mass produced blades.