Tsuba motifs ?

[Bencld]

Hi all. I can pick out kiragane (wild geese) on this tsuba but not sure about others. Maybe kabuto at bottom/top and crossed fans left/right ? 
What school style ? I think Shoami ?

Ta.

[ROKUJURO]

I see KARIGANE and possibly crossed hammers.

[Surfson]

Nice tsuba Chris.  I do suggest that you photograph on a different background.  The shadows from the carpet are very distracting. 

[Babu]

I'd say bats rather than geese.

When the wings curve to that degree it's usually bats.

Geese are less rounded.

[FlorianB]

Adam,
interesting theory. I haven’t heard about this difference yet.

Best, Florian

[Babu]

Bat's wings sort of sweep around and terminate in front of the head. So let's say sweep forward. 

Geese terminate at the shoulder so we can say sweep back. 

The NBTHK will call yours bat's and this one I've posted Geese. I think if you think about it you can see the similarities. 

I used to collect Chinese porcelain and had many styalised bat's and they always looked just like your tsuba. 

[vajo]

[MauroP]

Karigane (wild geese) have many different representations. Here below some examples:

Anyway, I think I have in my collection a piece with stylized bats (kōmori zu - 蝙蝠図):

[Babu]

Mauro whether you agree or not tsuba no 1 you show is bat's. 

They are not Geese. 

I've never seen that shape described as Geese. Always bat's In Whatever culture you choose. 

😊

[PietroParis]

  On 10/13/2020 at 9:00 PM, Babu said:

Mauro whether you agree or not tsuba no 1 you show is bat's. 

They are not Geese. 

I've never seen that shape described as Geese. Always bat's In Whatever culture you choose. 

😊

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And yet, the NBTHK certificate calls them geese ( 雁 )

Why did you think Mauro had posted snippets of the certificates?

[PietroParis]

Also, this book is usually considered a pretty reliable source...

 

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Can’t really see what we’re talking about in the first photograph.

 

PS Just checked on the PC screen; it's much clearer than on the mobile.

[Brian]

Geese indeed. No real reason for a tsuba to just have bats flying around.
Bats are used yes...but in conjunction with other elements that belong together or to depict a legend/fable.
Can't see a reason to just have bats circling a tsuba. They are not symbolic like geese are.

[Bugyotsuji]

Kinai Echizen (?) 6.6 cm x 6.0 cm.

 

 

[FlorianB]

Adam, I see Your point, but I’am not convinced.

 

Karigane on Japanese Tsuba show a lot of variations and I think artistic ideas must taken into account, not bound to realism.

Here’s one from Sasano with a karigane on the right having even different formed wings:

 

I doubt Karigane are geese everytimes, I think the general term “birds” would be more appropiate.
Here’s a karigane with elongiated body or tail which looks like a bird of prey:

 

 

As mentioned above geese play a major role in Japanese iconography, bats are only seldom an issue.

 

Japanese art, however, is very tolerant concerning interpretation.

 

Florian

[Bugyotsuji]

Bats seem to have short fat mouse-like bodies in the above images.

 

These are Karigane-so flowers.

[FlorianB]

... and a short remark to the initial issue:
The crossed objects left and right could be water ladles or hishaku.

 

 

Just an idea.

 

Florian

[vajo]

These are geese not bats Adam. I think my paint show it clear. 😂

 

Bencld Tsuba are geese - 100% sure. 

 

[Babu]

Well sadly they look exactly like the bats on my Chinese porcelain.

That's all I can say.

I've got tsuba with geese and they tend to look like this:

I've not one described as geese that look like the OP tsuba but I appreciate I'm as usual wrong by default once the numbers come against me.

So there are many ways to Sukashi a goose and it's down to the owner to try to interpret what that tsuba maker intended.

[vajo]

  On 10/14/2020 at 10:27 AM, Babu said:

Well sadly they look exactly like the bats on my Chinese porcelain.

That's all I can say.

I've got tsuba with geese and they tend to look like this:

I've not one described as geese that look like the OP tsuba but I appreciate I'm as usual wrong by default once the numbers come against me.

So there are many ways to Sukashi a goose and it's down to the owner to try to interpret what that tsuba maker intended.

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No!

 

 

[PietroParis]

  On 10/14/2020 at 10:27 AM, Babu said:

Well sadly they look exactly like the bats on my Chinese porcelain.

That's all I can say.

I've got tsuba with geese and they tend to look like this:

I've not one described as geese that look like the OP tsuba but I appreciate I'm as usual wrong by default once the numbers come against me.

So there are many ways to Sukashi a goose and it's down to the owner to try to interpret what that tsuba maker intended.

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I'm most certainly not an expert of this subject, but:

 

A bunch of Japanese experts in the NBTHK shinsa panel and the Japanese author of a classic tsuba book all say that those are geese.

 

Some guy in an internet forum is adamant that those are bats.

 

Who should I trust? Help! I am torn!

[vajo]

Pietro you need no experts or authors. The only thing you need is your eyes and a little interest in wildlife to see clearly that these are geese and no bats.

 

😂😂

 

 

If thoose would be bats 95% of all tsuba would be show "dark bats flying around the landscape"

[PietroParis]

  On 10/14/2020 at 10:51 AM, vajo said:

Pietro you need no experts or authors. The only thing you need is your eyes and a little interest in wildlife to see clearly that these are geese and no bats.

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To my eyes, they are so stylized that they could well be interpreted as bats, as well as many other things. The question is, what did that shape usually represent in ancient Japanese iconography? That's where I tend to trust Masayuki Sasano and the NBTHK guys over Mr. Maunder from Honiton Devon UK.

[vajo]

Really? Did you think the Japanese didn't know the shape of a bat wing and that from a bird? 😉

Did you notice the pictures what i have shown? If not - than we can discuss the weather on the southpole or something else. 

[PietroParis]

Look at the last tsuba posted by Mauro, his bats don't have the "shoulders" that you seem to find so crucial. Stylized shapes are, well, stylized, and may be reduced to a few basic elements that only vaguely recall the original subject. It seems to me that a knowledge of context (would you expect bats or geese in that particular composition?) and tradition (how were geese and bats usually represented by that particular school of artisans?) is what allows you to resolve these ambiguities. Once again, I certainly do not possess that knowledge, but I expect that the NBTHK panel that evaluated the first tsuba in Mauro's comparison did, as did the guy who wrote that classic book.

 

This said, if you have any interesting insight on the weather on the South Pole please go ahead...

[Bugyotsuji]

Repeated from post #16 above:

 

"Bats seem to have short fat mouse-like bodies in the above images."............... = Babu's images.

[PietroParis]

  On 10/14/2020 at 10:39 AM, vajo said:

 

No!

 

 

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One last thing Chris, I suspect that you are misinterpreting Adam's claim. He does believe that the shapes in the picture you included above are indeed geese.

 

However, he claims that these (with the curvy wings that reach under the body) are bats:

 

 

P.S. Piers is certainly right in that the shape of the body (elongated or stubby) is another data point to be considered.

 

[Babu]

Without taking the joy out of everyone's pleasure in insulting other members just because they get their jolly's that way. I have stated that the shape to me represents a bat because of the exaggerated curved wing and shown this on Chinese porcelain. 

You will never see a goose like that in any dynasty. Its not a goose to Chinese. 

Thats it really. 

My tsuba posted is Geese and very different to the OP. The other "bat like" shape is a subject of personal interpretation. 

So stop being little children because I doubt you would be like this if I was stood in front of you being 6'6" and 265lb 😉

 

[PietroParis]

  On 10/14/2020 at 12:17 PM, Babu said:

My tsuba posted is Geese and very different to the OP. The other "bat like" shape is a subject of personal interpretation. 

So stop being little children because I doubt you would be like this if I was stood in front of you being 6'6" and 265lb 😉

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I'd still trust the "personal interpretation" of Sasano and of the NBTHK panel over yours, no matter how tall and heavy you are. I really don't get why you need to play victim and complain about bullying and "insults" (where?), instead of just accepting that multiple reliable sources don't back your interpretation. A lot of people happen to be wrong on this forum from time to time and the world does not end.

[Babu]

  On 10/14/2020 at 12:30 PM, PietroParis said:

 

I'd still trust the "personal interpretation" of Sasano and of the NBTHK panel over yours, no matter how tall and heavy you are. I really don't get why you need to play victim and complain about bullying and "insults" (where?), instead of just accepting that multiple reliable sources don't back your interpretation. A lot of people happen to be wrong on this forum from time to time and the world does not end.

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I don't like the way people like you attack differing opinions. 

It's as simple as that. 

Books have been known to be very much wrong so stop believing everything you see in print. 

I have already shown why I think they are possibly bat's. 

Now it's down to each individual. 

Your a puppet so we know exactly where you stand. 

I'll comment no more.