A little flare

[IJASWORDS]

On Gendai blades, there is a flaring towards the kisaki. What is the Japanese term for this characteristic?  

[16k]

I think it’s already been discussed in a previous thread, Neil.

 

Pretty sure I’ve read something about it before here. I remember the reply was disappointing. I’m sure a search with keywords like Kissaki, Yokote or boshi might turn it up. Then, you’ll have a lot of threads to search through!

[sabiji]

Why only at Gendai? In all designs where the shinogi is higher than the mune, this effect is seen where the ko-shinogi meets the mune.
 

[IJASWORDS]

Thanks Thomas, I didn't say only Gendai, just used it as an example. Is there a name for it? 

[Shugyosha]

  On 10/9/2020 at 6:11 AM, sabiji said:

Why only at Gendai? In all designs where the shinogi is higher than the mune, this effect is seen where the ko-shinogi meets the mune.
 

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Hi Thomas,

I'm struggling to visualise what you mean - surely the shinogi can never be higher than the mune?

 

It's something I'd noted on later swords, maybe shin shinto onwards but is perhaps lost with repeated polishing in older blades? Obviously it's more apparent in some sugata: u-no-kubi and kanmuri otoshi for example but I too would be interested to hear if there was a specific name for it.

[sabiji]

It is what I mean (maybe a bit exaggerated on the picture):

high Shinogi

[Bazza]

  On 10/9/2020 at 11:09 AM, sabiji said:

It is what I mean (maybe a bit exaggerated on the picture):

high Shinogi

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This is called takashinogi... but I do not know the name of the flaring to the mitsugashira.

 

BaZZa.

[sabiji]

The blade has the greatest strength in shinogi. The principle continues at the kissaki in the ko-shinogi. Therefore the mune at this point expands to the strength of the Ko-Shinogi.
Therefore, the indications of the Kasane can be misleading in some schools and styles.
My Nidai Shigekuni in Yamato-Den style has 5 mm Moto-Kasane on the Mune and 7 mm on the Shinogi and shows exactly this effect on the Kissaki.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 10/9/2020 at 8:10 AM, Shugyosha said:

I'm struggling to visualise what you mean

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John,

He's talking about how the shinogi gets wider just before the tip.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Bruce, 

I understand that but was confused by Thomas’s explanation. I don’t believe it’s present on all blades and what you have shown is a widening of the mune. 
 

Does the blade also become wider at the mitsukado? 

[Bruce Pennington]

So, I'm gathering that we don't have a word for the widening of the blade shape at that point.

[Dave R]

  On 10/9/2020 at 5:23 AM, 16k said:

I think it’s already been discussed in a previous thread, Neil.

 

Pretty sure I’ve read something about it before here. I remember the reply was disappointing. I’m sure a search with keywords like Kissaki, Yokote or boshi might turn it up. Then, you’ll have a lot of threads to search through!

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 Probably one of my posts where I asked the same question. I understand that this feature appeared after the Mongol invasion in reaction to combat damage. I have seen the term "Bulls Head" used to describe it. It's quite pronounced in my Kanayoshi Shin Gunto. 

[DoTanuki yokai]

  On 10/9/2020 at 11:25 AM, sabiji said:

The blade has the greatest strength in shinogi. The principle continues at the kissaki in the ko-shinogi. Therefore the mune at this point expands to the strength of the Ko-Shinogi.
Therefore, the indications of the Kasane can be misleading in some schools and styles.
My Nidai Shigekuni in Yamato-Den style has 5 mm Moto-Kasane on the Mune and 7 mm on the Shinogi and shows exactly this effect on the Kissaki.

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This is the correct answer and "high shinogi" is the correct term.

and this for better understanding http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/shaping.html

[Shugyosha]

Hi Christian,

 

Sorry to be repetitive but I can’t see where the Shinogi fits into this. Also the page you referenced doesn’t show the widening at the mune shown in Bruce and Dave’s pictures. 

[DoTanuki yokai]

This picture explains what im talking about John.

[vajo]

Boars head mune. Its bigger than normal. Makes more damage because of its weight but it is slower to handle.

[SAS]

Nagayama's  "Connoisseurs Guide" has a discussion of this if I recall correctly; mine is packed so can't cite.

[mywei]

This area is called the 'Mune-saki/matsuba-saki’ iirc

So you could describe it as a thick munesaki

[Dave R]

  On 10/10/2020 at 7:58 PM, vajo said:

Boars head mune. Its bigger than normal. Makes more damage because of its weight but it is slower to handle.

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 Boars head makes more sense than Bull. I'll go with that.

[vajo]

I have no experience in martial arts with swords Dave. This was told to me. Maybe the Kenjitsu masters could tell more about that how the mune weight influence the work with a sword.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 10/11/2020 at 12:42 PM, vajo said:

weight influence the work with a sword.

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Chris,

My only experience is in holding my Takayama-to.  Although shorter than my standard gunto, it is heavier, and the fatter tip adds noticeable weight to the end.  So, it's end-heavy and not comfortably balanced in-hand, like most gunto.  The added weight at the end is designed to carry more momentum in the swing, bringing more impact force in the blow.  Takayama's idea was to "kill with one strike."  But the imbalance would quickly tire one's hand/wrist/forearm in a fight of longer length.

[vajo]

That is what i think too Bruce. More weight in the tip is more power in the impact. But handling is slower and needs more experience.

[celt72]

My understanding is that it is thicker at the kissaki to allow for the sword to more easily penetrate when thrusting. It decreases the chance of the kissaki breaking if the thrust is done improperly. In my old ryu, we used to practice thrusting with our katanas.