Learning experiences

[mtexter]

Hi Everyone,

 

I find that I'm struggling a bit to learn more about Nihonto.  Over the last couple of months since the community helped me learn about my family's swords, my knowledge has stagnated.  I have bought a 3-volume set of books on the various smiths of Japan, (and maybe that is the best avenue to learn more) but I'm trying to just grasp what seems to be basic knowledge for many other forum members.  What is an itame hada?  What does a hakimage boshi look like, versus komaru, omaru, etc?  I've been looking for good resources to help distinguish the many, many different types of blade attributes, but have come up empty.  (Yes, I have a LOT of books to get around to reading, but I'm also not sure what a good starting book would be.)

 

Did most of you learn just through experience?  I'm curious what resources there are to help me learn (besides the wonderful people on this forum of course), other than piecing it together one item at a time and hoping my brain remembers.  I'd love to hear 'origin stories' if anyone is willing to share how you learned, or how you got into the hobby, or whatever!

 

Cheers,

[Geraint]

Dear Mike.

 

Take it easy.  Almost all of us would assure you that you have  a lifetime of study ahead of you and even then you won't be an expert.  That is at least part of the fascination.  I started quite by accident when my Mother bought me a Japanese sword for Christmas.  All I had to go on were some very basic general books on swords, there was no internet and almost no material in English.  I did  some work on the subject at college and manged to glean a lot of information from Stone's Glossary.  Pretty thin stuff.  The Victoria and Albert museum had a small booklet, I still have it, and then I found by accident again, a copy of Sword and Same.  That and a copy of The Arts of the Japanese Sword by Robinson were it for many years. 

 

All this time I still only had the one sword and that was battle damaged. A year or three later I cycled past an antique shop and saw a fine katana in koshirae, had to go in just to see it but I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw what it was going for, the dealer didn't know what he had and I went into overdraft to get it,  it' still one of my best swords.  Carrying it home on the bike was tricky!  Some years later I met a guy who had a sword and he put me in touch with a dealer who was not too far away and who used to publish typed lists of his stock.  Oh, the excitement when a new one arrived!  No pictures, just typed text but you could dream.  He suggested to my wife that a membership of JSS/US would be a good present and so on.  No NMB and no one to talk to until a collector got in touch as he had seen my details in JSS/US.

 

Too much information I'm sure but the point is it all took a very long time.  With the advent of the internet a host of information and disinformation is at your finger tips.  If you have not already found it try here, https://www.aoijapan.com/  Read the descriptions and try to see what they mean by looking at the photographs.  Try to decipher some of the signatures.  Lots of information here, https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/sites2.htm  and links to many other sites as there are if you click on the  Nihonto info tab at the top of the page.  One of the FAQs gives you a list of books to start with.

 

I still have that first sword, it's worthless as it has a bullet hole through the hamon but I still learn from it.  Most of all enjoy!  

 

OK, enough rambling, time for another sip of Calvados.

 

All the best.

 

[Toryu2020]

Most of us outside of Japan do not have the luxury of seeing good swords in hand month in and month out. Your best bet is to memorize the terminology - try to understand as best you can thru photos - try to do online kantei or shijo kantei. When you do get to see good swords you can connect the terminology to the actual activity. Studying this way takes time but you can get there, ganbatte!

-tch

[envocat]

I'm in a similar position and  https://www.aoijapan.com/ has been a godsend. Hi res photos are as close as i'll get to handling many of these high-end blades for the time being. 

 

I've only ever been interested in indo-persian arms/armour and prior to finding this forum every Japanese sword looked like one of those £50 'ninja sword' you'd see in the corner shop window. 

 

Battle damaged weapons are fascinating. I'd love to see the bullet-damaged blade sometime, assuming you've got it handy of course.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Mike, you've jumped into a very-deep pool. There are many book recommendations on NMB, but let me point out a couple that should work for you.

 

John Yumoto's "The Japanese Sword" is probably the easiest to absorb, https://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Sword-Handbook-John-Yumoto-ebook/dp/B00ATLAZEQ/

 

I also recommend Paul Martin's "Facts & Fundamentals of Japanese Swords" https://www.amazon.com/Facts-Fundamentals-Japanese-Swords-Collectors/dp/1568365837/

 

And, of course there is Nagayama's "The Connossseur's Book of Japanese Swords" https://www.amazon.com/Connoisseurs-Book-Japanese-Swords/dp/1568365810/

 

For under $100, you'll have a library that will last you for many years. But, frankly, where I would start is with the free, on-line university-level couse by our very own Markus Sesko, https://markussesko.com/kantei/

 

On the boshi, komaru is a short curve, omaru is a larger curve, & hakikake looks like broom sweepings.

[lonely panet]

to have a life of studing good swords seroiusly requires sacrifies,  especially if you cant afford to buy them. i had to drive 8 hrs 1 way to get one on one study lessons with educated peaple. AND you need to learn from educated peaple. self study IMHO is time wasted. you dont know what you dont know.

 

in the end, by the time i realised the sacrifes i had to make to study full time would be just to big for my young family. so i made the heart breaking desicion to turn my back on studing nihonto.

 

but if you have alot of clubs or peaple that will give there time and help you, and you can afford the time, and money costs jump in and never look back.

studing nihonto expanded the better part of my personally and out look on life, gives you a small check on life of how little WE acually know.

 

books can help, but its like sex, reading a book cant really explain the hole act. hands on learning WILL.

 

 

[Rivkin]

An extremely unpopular opinion, but it needs to be stated.

You have to study extensively about 100 swords. It is unlikely you can accomplish this without owning something at one time or another.

You have to study for at least a minute to five about 500 and do something that helps you to memorize them. Oshigata, photo, whatever suits you.

You have to have someone looking at swords with you, at least in the beginning. To point out what to look at.

Books are books.

 

Kirill R.

[mtexter]

Wow, great stories and advice so far, thank you all.  I have a great reading list ahead of me  
Since discovering this community, I've had a lot of fun seeing so many interesting things and learning just how much there is to know about this one topic.  What a beautiful way to spend a few months.  It's crazy to think I only saw my family's collection for the first time as an adult just under 3 months ago.  I can't wait to see where this takes me!

P.S. I'm also attempting to learn Japanese, for some reason; it's fun!  Hiragana and ≈50 kanji down, katakana and ... a LOT more kanji to go

[paulb]

Mike,

I have realised that I am now 40 years in to this and there are others here who have been at it even longer. Some key thoughts for me:

Take every opportunity you can to see good swords. As said to the point of tedium by looking at specific features in good swords you are more easily able to recognise them in lesser work.

 

Keep an open mind there are great swords from all periods and traditions, if you limit your thinking to too narrower target you stand the chance to miss a great deal of beautiful work.

 

Accept that even after very many years of study you will only know a small amount (that's me I am referring to) The subject is vast and often there are no yes or no answers.

 

Spend as much time as you can with other enthusiasts, listen to what they have to say and be prepared to discuss differences of opinion. Technology helps a lot but there is no substitute for hands on meetings.

 

As Hamish says it requires effort and sacrifice but it is also incredibly rewarding not only in itself but in regard to other areas of culture and art it may lead you.

 

 

[vajo]

Books and pictures are good, but you need things in hand to understand what you see on pictures. You can spent hours by reading about hamon and hada and understand nothing. But when you see it under light you need only seconds to know what it is. And take your time. You know allways more than you think you didn't know.

[b.hennick]

At a sword club meeting, I  brought a sword and a full oshigata of the sword. When I  talked about hataraki I  could point to the oshigata  to show where the feature can be found. It was a great way to move from photo and description to the real thing. I recommend making a full oshigata of a blade to really learn what you are seeing.

[Surfson]

Mike, after the covid lockdown has ended (hopefully next summer?), you are welcome to come visit me in Chicago to look at swords.  I have stumbled upon a few good ones over the years.  Hey, maybe we can organize a Tristate sword club in MI, WI, IL.  Cheers, Bob

[mtexter]

On 10/2/2020 at 12:18 PM, Surfson said:

Mike, after the covid lockdown has ended (hopefully next summer?), you are welcome to come visit me in Chicago to look at swords.  I have stumbled upon a few good ones over the years.  Hey, maybe we can organize a Tristate sword club in MI, WI, IL.  Cheers, Bob

I love this idea.  Chicago is an easy train ride from GR, or just a few hours in the car.  Similar for our friends from Milwaukee, I think!  And let's not forget Ohio, I've seen at least a couple of members from there.  Yay Midwest!

 

I also really want to go to the chicago sword show, once that comes back.

[Mark S.]

I’m in for Chicago meet up!  Live 15 minutes from O’Hare airport.  I can only offer my less than desirable blades... but they are what they are.

[Surfson]

With any luck, we will have a vaccine that is widely distributed by next summer, so let's shoot for next summer.  

 

In the meantime, maybe we can start a thread just about forming a Chicago Sword Study Group and build some planning and interest.  I think that there was one here many years ago, but am not aware that it is still running.  We can either find a central location (like the Japanese cultural center), take turns hosting or I can host.  

 

During preparation, we can plan a couple of zoom meetings.  

[16k]

Hey, Mike,

 

I've meant to reply to this thread but been busy all week, but here’s my experience and advices, from a guy who knows what you are going through. First, don’t despair, there are "walls" in that hobby, and sometimes, you spend quite some time before finding a crack where you can break through.

 

Here are my advices. They are worth what they are and represent some of what I had to go through in the past twenty years, mistakes and all. As a foreword, let me tell you that you are a lucky guy! Living in the USA gives you opportunities I never had.

 

So how to start and progress....

 

First, the books. There are many very good books and some are compulsory. I started with John Yumoto's book and it is still the one I’d recommend as a starter even though it is very dated. Why? Because it’s a good read, not boring and it will give you all the primers. Virtually, when you’ve read that book, you think you know everything there is to know about Japanese swords... which, of course, couldn’t be further from the truth!

Still, it’s great because you’ll get all the minimum vocabulary required and will know to make the difference between The different forms of Hamon and Hada. Trouble is it will also give you some prejudice about swords quality (for him Koto = masterpiece, Shinto =crap, Gunto being the mother of all crap), so just forget that part.

 

Then, I’d go with "Fact and Fundamentals". It’s not the one experts recommend but I do for two reasons. First, once again, it’s a good, entertaining read and second, he somehow makes you comfortable, insisting on the fact that many things are just opinions. For example, if you have trouble making Mokume from Itame, he’ll comfort you saying that they’re virtually the same (they’re not exactly) and, for sure You can read some sources that will state such and such swordsmith uses Itame while another will call it Mokume. I’ve seen it plenty of time. All this to insist on the fact that some sources are to be taken with a grain of salt and you have to forge your own opinion.

 

Finally, the next compulsory read is "The Connoisseur's book..." That one is necessary but I don’t think you need to read it in one go. Too much information there. Pick a school, read about it, look at the diagrams and find pictures on the net t see some actual examples and how they conform to the description. It’s a long term work and will take years.

 

Other than books, you have pictures, this site and the opportunities I never had: in the USA, you have sword shows. Go to them! Nothing beats seeing a sword in person. Once you’ve seen a sword by a particular smith or school, chances are you will know one the next time you see one.

 

And of course, I never had the opportunity to have a mentor. If you can find someone near you knowledgeable, do it. There’s nothing like it! He’ll point to you things that took me years to find out by myself!

 

Finally, hang on. You’ll go through phases. You have to be completely into it to progress. Learning Nihonto is like learning a language. You need commitment. There will be times when you’ll feel less committed (I know it, I’m in such a phase at the moment). Don’t worry, as soon as you’ll get back into it, you’ll feel like a renewal and will progress again. It is my belief that the brain needs those moments to process everything and order it into place. Never give up!

[b.hennick]

The above post should be a stickie!👍👍

[Surfson]

Ken and JP are steering you well as far as books go.  If the three volume book you bought is Markus' list of smiths, that is a reference book, and good for looking up smiths, but not helpful for learning about swords and swordmaking.  Markus has an encyclopedia that I find to be very useful for looking up and reinforcing terminology as you read some of the books and websites.  

[mtexter]

JP that is a wonderful post, thank you very much!  I agree with Barry, it should be stickied or pointed to somehow for others to see   Can't wait until covid is overwith, chicago meetup sounds great.  Maybe some of our overseas friends want to fly in for the Chicago sword show (assuming it's back on) next year

[16k]

Thank you guys!

 

I will add this too: I spoke about commitment, and yes, it is necessary.

 

But never forget this is a hobby. A hobby is supposed to be fun. If at anytime it becomes a chore, you’re doing it wrong. There are some great people on this board whose knowledge I revere, but among those people I seem to see two types of people. Those who still keep that freshness of mind and know that fun is still the purpose, and those that have been "taken over" by the knowledge and only live for this. Just remember that it’s a hobby, it’s supposed to be fun and whether you progress fast, slow, or not at all, the important thing is that you enjoy yourself!

[paulb]

Well said JP, although if I am honest I wish I could find a better word than hobby. For many, me included, it has consumed a lot of my waking life (some of my unconscious life too I suspect) and hobby doesn't feel as though it does it justice.

I would differ a little from your recommendations, not necessarily in content but perhaps in order of reading. I do believe Facts and Fundamentals' has some interesting ideas and is thought provoking. However I think it is best read after some of the others you mention to enable the reader to gain a grounding in the basics. If they do this they can better understand the authors opinions, differences of view point and reach a conclusion as to whether they agree or not. Reading the counter arguments before you have any idea what the debate is might be more confusing than useful. So yes it has a lot of good stuff and should be read but not as a first step. (personal opinion no more or less)

Not sure if you count me as one who has been "taken over", certainly in a sense of time taken up by the subject, but I hope I can still say hand on heart that for the vast majority of time it is great fun and very rewarding.

[16k]

No Paul, you’re one of the guys who knows that there’s life, and then there’s the swords. Actually, I’ve said it to you before, but you’re the mentor I would have liked to have. You know a lot and still have kept your humility and humor, which I think are the greatest qualities a teacher can have.

 

As for why I advise Fact and Fundamentals before others, as a guy with no mentor, this book has been a very comforting one to me because as the title says, it gives "facts and fundamentals" and place them before tradition. I know it is controversial in many ways and I think it needs to be balanced with other books, but when you feel a bit lost, it book is really helpful. I know it is one of my favorites. 
 

Also, as I said, it reads easily and the F.A.Q are a great way to go into the finer details. I know people don’t recommend it as your second read, and if you have a mentor, Connoisseur... is the way to go. But without a mentor,  Facts... helps you out by making things simpler to grasp. I first read Connoisseur... completely. It was boring at times and I realized after I’d read it that there were so much information in it that I hadn’t processed most of it. Hence the approach I recommend, going bits by bits. Facts is another matter entirely. You read it and most of it is burned in your head forever.

 

As for the word "hobby", it covers a lot of ground. A hobby can become a sort of addiction, so I believe the word applies to both light and very serious commitment, so long as you can still realize that it mustn’t take over the rest of your life and put your social interactions at risk. Then it becomes an addiction. I like hobby because it carries the "fun" part in it.

[Bazza]

JP wrote:

> As for the word "hobby", it covers a lot of ground. A hobby can become a sort of addiction, so I believe the word applies

> to both light and very serious commitment, so long as you can still realize that it mustn’t take over the rest of your

>  life and put your social interactions at risk. Then it becomes an addiction. I like hobby because it carries the "fun" part in it.

 

Might we say then that a very few people become "abcessed"??

 

BaZZa.

[paulb]

I hope not. obsessed may be equally debilitating but at least less painful and wouldn't require antibiotics😉

[16k]

Well, I guess a hobby can turn into a passion for some and an obsession for others. The two sides of a same coin.