Tanto What do I have here?

[Babu]

So your thinking that the blade going in and out has caused this type of wear?

Does this seem credible to you?

Listen I've shown you both sides of the tanto Koshirae and there is very clear evidence that the other side is just not well done or even correctly done.

That's all I can do really.

You make your own mind up.

Just look at how badly the groove is cut. It's just not wear n tear, it's poorly done.

It's not that I care. Like I said I just made an observation.

Its everyone else after that observation that's blown this out of proportion to the point of being almost insulting. 

Making out I'm disrespecting the tanto or talking utter bullocks which I wasn't doing at all, then being accused of making covert offers to the OP which I'm sure he will confirm as utter fantasy.

You cannot talk on this forum anymore without someone jumping to the wrong conclusion then everyone else joining in like a lynch mob with noose at the ready.

I'm out of the conversation now so carry on as if I never mentioned it which I would not have had I known you were all going to be so off about it.

 

 

[Alex A]

Whoa, easy tiger, im not saying you re disrespecting metal

 

You mentioned copper on copper, and i was wondering about steel on copper.

 

Maybe a Samurai that liked a drink, or had the shakes  lol

 

 

[Guns Knives and Swords]

Adam both sides of the Tanto have the same rough file marks, the picture failed to pick it up on the one side. I have been following this closely as you may imagine.  The thing I find odd is that if additional work was done to add the knife and tool then it was all done to near perfection except for the slots in question.  It seems odd to go through all this trouble and do it all correctly and leave the slots this rough with what looks like very little final finishing if any to me.  I have looked under a glass and the file marks are coarse and even seem to have some galling.  I know what wear looks like and this in not wear.  While you cant quite see it in the picture I posted of the sheath opening the curve of the slot and the curve of the tools are a perfect fit.  It seems so odd to me to make everything else this nice and then to skip what would have been a relatively easy step to a complete finished job whether done originally or done at a later point.  Adam I get your point and I understand it fully but can you offer an explanation of why the slot would have been left in this state when clearly everything else is polished and finished?  You use the words crude and poorly done.  Those words are in sharp contrast to the rest of the package.  Why are the slots so out of character compared to all of the other work?

[Stephen]

Be nice if Ford stepped in.

[Babu]

To be honest Ford is an artisan and will not be able to offer any more insight than I can. 

I've looked closely at both slots and I do think that the cleaner filed slot looks more original. 

The other in my mind was added later and not very skillfully. Almost like a field adjustment or alteration. 

 

I don't think those fittings were made for a kozuka AND kogai just a kozuka at most and as you say maybe not even that but I do think that one side looks OK. 

The kogai if anything was added later. 

The “Aikuchi" is a dagger mounted without a tsuba. 

What the tsuba does is prevent the hand from sliding onto the blade In a thrust attack. 

So to mount a yoroi doshi needing serious strength to penetrate armour in a thrust attack into fittings without a tsuba is extremely unuseful and opens the wielder to huge risk of injury and death. 

Furthermore the elimination of a tsuba meant this type of sword or dagger could he hidden in the folds of clothing and whipped out without the tsuba catching in those folds. 

So why mount a yoroi doshi as an Aikuchi in the first place. 

It's not a practical weapon on the battlefield. 

So it's likely the mounts have been adapted to suit someone's taste or needs. 

I doubt we will ever know, but that saya based on the evidence did not go with that tanto as its got two slots and that fuchi was not made for a kogai and kozuka and had only one slot as manufactured . 

Make sense? 

 

It's still a beautiful set I'd be happy to own and I thank you for sharing it. 

[Guns Knives and Swords]

The sheath fro the blade is 2 inches longer then the blade.  Would that be correct or an indication of a repurposed sheath?

[Tom Darling]

Michael, that is another good point,  but  maybe the owner requested it to appear longer. I'll make this brief, concerning scabbard, copper goshirae on black lacquered surface, doesn't appeal to me aesthetically.  The scabbard isn't that will made either. I won't mine if you disagree with my opinion.  My eyes are  not young anymore. Peace.

 

Tom D.

[Guido]

4 hours ago, Babu said:

To be honest Ford is an artisan and will not be able to offer any more insight than I can. 

 

Well, I always considered him an artist, but what do I know? But even mere artisans should be able to offer some insights into the construction of sword fittings, especially if that's what they do for a living.

 

I'm no artist, artisan, nor do I have decades of experience in engineering - but I handled quite a few koshirae the last 40+ years, and some aikuchi were among them. Only those with horn fittings were made of solid material. All other (metal) koiguchi and fuchi were constructed like regular fuchigashira, i.e. with walls of even thickness. Filing them back would therefore result in holes; hammering them back would completely deform the fitting due to the tenjōgane.

 

Deducting from some scratches that it's a cobbled together koshirae with altered fittings is astoundingly brilliant. Or not.

 

"Does your horse smoke?"

"No, why?"

"Well, I guess then your barn's on fire."

 

Back into hiatus ...

[Tanto54]

Adam, for what it is worth...  The kogai, kozuka and two slots are original to the set.  A lot of the roughness is clearly wear - look at the ends of the kozuka and kogai - you can see excessive wear there too (where they have scraped across the slots over the years).  Remember to consider the work hardening during the crafting that would make the edges of the kozuka and kogai harder than the slots (even if they are made from the same metal).  Finally, I believe that the artist probably originally made the slots somewhat rough (like the "bark" finish of the back of the kozuka and kogai), but it would have had a nicer look before all the years of scraping the kozuka and kogai in and out .  

[PNSSHOGUN]

Many of the techniques and ways of holding a Tanto without Tsuba prevent your hand sliding up onto the blade.

[Babu]

Gentlemen you don't seem to be able to see what is clearly evident and I wonder if this is due to who has raised the matter more than the matter itself. 

 

It's not wear and the suggestion of work hardening would assume the kogai and kozuka would have a back surface texture of a course file. That's just not the case as you can see it's crosshatch scored only . 

The OP has looked at it under an eyeglass and he also sees its rough filing not coherent with the rest of the work and is not wear as the normal wear has worn down the raised filing. It's also really clear from the image the slot is very poorly formed and does not show an expert level of skill in formation as its not lined up to the wooden slot correctly. 

You can lead a horse to water gentleman..... 

Please let's just agree to disagree on this matter and move on for the benefit of the original post and leave this parked I've no time to bang my head against a wall when people are clearly so blind to the obvious. 

 

 

[Shugyosha]

15 minutes ago, Babu said:

Gentlemen you don't seem to be able to see what is clearly evident and I wonder if this is due to who has raised the matter more than the matter itself.

 

 

Adam,

Not all opinions are of equal value. Mine and yours are worth less than those of other people who post on here and, where there is more than one possible explanation for how something came about, our opinions will have less credibility than those of certain other people. I for one will back Guido's view over most other board members and if you suggest that Ford Hallam knows nothing because he is a mere artisan, well you're ignoring the fact that he is a pretty decent scholar of his art too and his views are authoritative as there are few who know enough (certainly on NMB and probably generally) to contradict them.

 

I am happy to accept that, given the breadth and depth of this subject and how difficult I find it to take in the information relevant to it, that I will probably be wrong on a more or less daily basis. It's embarassing at times and I'm sure it has lost me plenty of kudos as a board member but it is what it is. The key for me here is to have fun playing the game in terms of discussion and to expand my knowledge if possible, hopefully without hacking too many people off.

 

If, however, you want to be considered as one of the go-to board members for an opinion, you have to earn those stripes and, sorry to state the obvious and I'm not trying to be cruel, but you haven't been around long enough yet to have done so.

[Babu]

God forbid John. No, I do not want that "honour". 

I know where I stand on here it's been drummed into me enough. My way or the highway. 

I just made an observation based on my experience . 

Ford is supremely knowledgeable I wasn't suggesting otherwise and I'd love his take on this but he's an artist not an engineer that's what I was alluding to . 

What might he know about say Creep, fatigue or stress on materials? 

For all I know he understands it all. 

Contact him show him the close ups recently added by Mike and let's roll the dice but remember ford will not always be right as will I not. 

 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

It isn't just a matter of being here for long enough, no matter how new or established a member if they can clearly and capably demonstrate knowledge they will be respected. 

[Babu]

Honestly please hand this back to the op Mike now enough is enough. 

I'm tired of trying to help you understand how I got to my conclusions. 

I think Mike has more questions to ask and we may be in the way of those questions. 

All the best Adam 

[16k]

Looks like I missed a fight?

 

(runs to the garage to retrieve his boxing gloves).

[PNSSHOGUN]

If only one person understands his conclusions and refuses to breakdown to others how and why, then why bother asserting them? If I start saying everything on here is "modern Dutch" without elaborating on how I came to this conclusion I'm sure it wouldn't be long before I was more or less tarred and feathered and shown the door. 

[Ford Hallam]

Let me start by saying that Guido Schiller is a huge wind up merchant and is probably not in any way good for my health. He 'generously' sent me a link to this thread suggesting it'd amuse me.

 

So...here I am🤪

 

I had a good look at the images before reading any opinions. I formed my own 'take' on the set completely independently of those posted previously here.

 

My first impression, and it remains so, it that the entire koshirae is original. The copper metalwork workmanship is unmistakably 'en-suite'. 

 

The only feature that stands out, in an awkward way, is, to my eyes, the rough file marks and outline of the kogai atari on the fuchi.

 

The same feature on the other side, for the kozuka, appears to be neatly and delicately shaped and filed. But, significantly, it also clearly has traces of silvering still present in the textured area.  This is quite absent on the other side, the rough one.

 

Now, as has been pointed out, there's no way copper implements like the kogai and kozuka, even the steel blade, could create that sort of 'yasuri-mei' pattern in copper. So we can safely rule our wear.

 

Adam (Babu) stated quite emphatically, early on in this thread that

Quote

"File marks should never be present in a finished item ."

 

This is incorrect, as the descriptive term 'yasuri-mei' might suggest.  In fact, a filed ground is a fairly common feature on tosogu. We see it most frequently on the soft metal liners of hitsu-ana on tsuba, for example. It appears specifically to have been applied where there was a possibility of some 'metal to metal' contact. This type of finish hides well minor scuff marks that would otherwise be glaringly obvious and unsightly on a polished ground.

 

So we have one anomaly in an otherwise perfectly matched and well preserved period piece.

 

I would suggest that the absence of any traces of silvering might mean that someone worked on that area sometime after the whole koshirae was first completed. The work carried out is clearly not as careful or skilled than the original work. The 'yasuri-mei' on the untouched side are very even and quite fine, and the out-line is neat and a pleasing curve, and was silver, which would have echoed the moon on the habaki and looked quite stylish when the kogai was withdrawn, a nice 'surprise'. To create all of that elegantly takes a great dal of hand skill, experience and attention to minute detail. 

Whoever attempted to rework the other side simply wasn't good enough to match the level of skill required. They lost control of the outline, the shape became less than elegant, and the file marks are uneven, with occasional lines noticeably deeper, which in turn creates a less refined effect. And the silvering wasn't re-applied.

 

We can speculate as to why this additional work was carried out, possibly there was a blemish of some sort, a knick or some verdigris for example...I've seen far worse as the result of well meaning restoration by inexpert restorers. 

 

There you have it, my opinion, for what it's worth, and including previously unnoticed and crucial evidence, to wit the traces of silvering. 🤓

 

 

 

 I should like to add that no amount of experience as an engineer, in modern times, will provide any insight at all into the subtitles of hand working copper, or any of the metals, ferrous and non, at this level of finesse in the Japanese tradition. So can we please all agree not to toss irrelevant credentials about on this forum like they might actually mean something? They don't, and are only being used to claim some authority where none exists. I'd go so far as to say that it's a bit like claiming special insight into Rembrandt's technique because you've been a painter and decorator for 40 years.

 

I bet some of you wish now that you'd let sleeping dogs lie...🙊

 

oh, and just for the record, as part of my training to become a master goldsmith...a real qualified one with papers 'n s**t, I had to study metallurgy, and gemmology. But the most valuable skill one learns on the way to becoming a master craftsman, like Drurer, Da Vinci, Bernini, Holbein et al,  is that of seeing....and then trying to understand accurately what it is you see.

 

 

[Babu]

Here you go.  Posted before I saw Ford's response. 

So I think that slot B may be original to the fuchi and koiguchi. The work is not overly filed and it looks most likely original. 

However slot A is clearly not the same. Its out of alignment, badly rendered and rough as old boots. 

The logic behind it being usage wear and tear is flawed because the softer laquer and wood would also exhibit thus anomoly. 

So based on this observation I cannot help but think that the slot A is not original and that it's been added in the field or at home. 

It's an old repair but none the less it just doesn't look right. 

I'm open to any alternative explanation if it's credible. 

 

[Shugyosha]

Adam,

Ford's explanation is definitive. It doesn't matter what explanation you would entertain because you aren't him.

[Babu]

14 minutes ago, Ford Hallam said:

This is incorrect, as the descriptive term 'yasuri-mei' might suggest

What I meant was file marks this bad and ugly, Ford. I'm well aware of Yasuri mei. This is not intentional in this case. 

 

So it may be an adjustment or it may be an additional slot and we will never know. 

kogai atari on the koiguchi is just as bad and has almost been filed through. 

I still proffer its an added slot as I cannot see why the removal of so much copper was necessary for adjustment of an on suite manufactured set. 

It should fit "out of the box " with nominal adjustment. 

 

[Babu]

5 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Adam,

Ford's explanation is definitive. It doesn't matter what explanation you would entertain because you aren't him.

Uh.... I think ford just agreed with me. 

[Shugyosha]

1 minute ago, Babu said:

Uh.... I think ford just agreed with me. 

 

He may have done, but his is the opinion that counts, not yours. Sorry but that's the way this stuff works. If I agreed with you, (and I don't disagree with you) my view would still be worth nothing as it carries no authority.

[Dave R]

In a thread this long I may have missed something but, surely the bigger problem of adding another item to the mount, would be cutting the slot/aperture in the wood and lacquer of the Saya, and then removing all signs of the new work. A new made for purpose saya would be the easier option in fact.

[Babu]

 

12 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

He may have done, but his is the opinion that counts, not yours. Sorry but that's the way this stuff works. If I agreed with you, (and I don't disagree with you) my view would still be worth nothing as it carries no authority.

So what your saying is that if I come running up to you shouting "your house is on fire get out quick" you will ignore me until the fire service arrive and tell you to get out. 

Forgive me but that's a very silly statement. 

Every one of you told me I was full of crap and even now not one of you has the strength of character to admit I was right. 

 

You really do need to take a long hard look in the mirror gentlemen. 

I am embarrassed for you. 

[Babu]

2 minutes ago, Dave R said:

In a thread this long I may have missed something but, surely the bigger problem of adding another item to the mount, would be cutting the slot/aperture in the wood and lacquer of the Saya, and then removing all signs of the new work. A new made for purpose saya would be the easier option in fact.

Quite, its possible the saya is a later addition. 

But we will never know. 

 

[Dave R]

11 minutes ago, Babu said:

Quite, its possible the saya is a later addition. 

But we will never know. 

 

 

 In which case the tosugo  will have been purpose made as part of the package!

 

[Shugyosha]

2 minutes ago, Babu said:

 

So what your saying is that if I come running up to you shouting "your house is on fire get out quick" you will ignore me until the fire service arrive and tell you to get out. 

Forgive me but that's a very silly statement. 

Every one of you told me I was full of crap and even now not one of you has the strength of character to admit I was right. 

 

You really do need to take a long hard look in the mirror gentlemen. 

I am embarrassed for you. 

No, I’m saying your opinion is worth pretty much Jack Sh!t around here because you don’t know enough, same as me. It doesn’t matter if you were right because your opinion is of no value - all of what you said previously is trumped by Ford’s contribution which is (or should have been) the last word. Sorry. 
 

If you can’t get that after three attempts at me explaining nicely then you never will. 

[Guns Knives and Swords]

Here are two better pictures of the area in question.  One of Each side.  The first picture appears to have blurred or worn edges near the bottom but this is not the case, the colors of the copper make it appear that way.

 

 

 

[Guns Knives and Swords]

Neither side has the edges of the slots aligned with the slots in the sheath.  Both sides are cut straight and allow the curve of the copper to show.  Both sides are a perfect fit to the knife and tool when you imagine the slight angle they sit at when in place giving near 100 percent contact with the back of the knife and tool.  If they were equal to the edges of the slot in the sheath there would be a very slight gap when in place.  The pictures are not as good as having it in ones hand.  Adam's picture with the captions is not accurate to the real thing.  See the new pictures and look closely.  Both edges curve in slightly at the bottom.  This allows full contact with the knife and tool since they have a slight curve on the backside.