george trotter Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 HI all, Just for fun I thought I'd ask about blade lengths in Rinji mounts. Now, I haven't really been taking notes on this, but GENERALLY speaking, I think I notice that the "government mandated" type rinji made in Seki/Nagoya/Gifu with steel scabbard, tends to have a (government regulation?) short blade c. 62 cm while the private order mounts with lacquered wood scabbard and hilt have longer blades c.64-66 cm. To illustrate this, here are two of my Rinji: 1. Privately made/mounted gendaito blade by Tsukamoto Masakazu (older bro. of Okimasa of Tokyo) with a blade length of 69.5 cm. This is the longest blade I have seen in a rinji mount. 2. Seki Sword Co. made Govt. mandated steel mounts with RJT blade of Nakata Kanehide at 62.5cm. Any comments...examples? (BTW, the long sword is much lighter than the short sword). Regards, 3 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 I wish I had a measurement on my old standard Rinji, but it's gone and I don't. But my star-stamped Kunitoshi Rinji has a nagasa of 63.8cm, right at the bottom end of your range for custom Rinji blades. 1 Quote
vajo Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 Hi George here my measurements. Masayoshi: Nagasa 66,4 cm Yoshitada: Nagasa 62,5 cm Munemitsu: Nagasa 65,8 cm Akihisa: Nagasa 64,7 cm Nagamitsu: Nagasa 65,72 cm The longest Rinji mounted sword i have is from (Kosaka) Masayoshi 正義 (April 1944) with 66,4 cm blade lenght. All of these are RJT star stamped gendaito. 1 Quote
george trotter Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Posted September 24, 2020 Interesting Bruce, I also do not have a showato Rinji sword so can't comment. My Rinji sets are all gendaito...maybe it would help if I set out the lengths: Remember, that first one by Masakazu is private order Rinji mounts and blade, so I suppose you could order any length you liked? So here the 5 are with dates/lengths - 2 private made blades...3 RJT blades: 4/17 private order rinji mounts, blade, by Masakazu, Fukushima ken = 69.5 cm blade (he became a RJT about this time). 1/19 private order rinji mounts, blade by Seisui, Tokyo (made Shinano ken) = 62.1 cm blade (unknown smith - one-off?) 5/18 private order rinji mounts, blade by Munetoshi Niigata ken RJT star 64.0 cm 5/19 govt mandated steel mounts , blade by Kanehide, Seki/Gifu ken RJT star = 62.5 cm. I should say that from 1941 Kanehide worked for the Seki Sword Co and was an RJT there. Obviously this company received govt. produced "stock standard" rinji mounting parts I have seen several Kanehide star blades in govt. steel mounts (but with 2 buttons). 8/19 private order rinji mounts, blade by Kunihide, Kyoto RJT star = 66.8 cm Not sure this tells us much...be interesting if members told us date, rinji mounts type and maker/length of their swords...maybe nothing, but they seem to be shorter in rinji mounts. Regards, Edit to add...wow Chris...excellent. All within the 62-67 cm range. This seems to fit my list here except for the Masakazu at 69.5...I wonder how many long ones will turn up? I think my 69.5 blade is just because it was private order...I don't think we will see a RJT blade that long? Great stuff. 1 Quote
vajo Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 Yes George. Only the Nagamitsu has the stamp of the Osaka Rikugun Zoheisho with no. 3490. Quote
george trotter Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Posted September 24, 2020 Thanks Chris, that is interesting stuff. NOW...not sure if this should be a new Rinji post...but I just thought of an additional question regarding Rinji mounts/blades...has anyone seen an old pre-Meiji blade in rinji mounts? I know I haven't. Regards, 1 Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 15 minutes ago, george trotter said: Thanks Chris, that is interesting stuff. NOW...not sure if this should be a new Rinji post...but I just thought of an additional question regarding Rinji mounts/blades...has anyone seen an old pre-Meiji blade in rinji mounts? I know I haven't. Regards, Now that you mention it I can't rightly recall seeing old blades in the Rinji mounts at all, how unusual. Quote
Dave R Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 One example of an old blade in Rinji mounts from http://ohmura-study.net/753.html I suspect that the shorter nakago on the older blades was an issue. 1 Quote
george trotter Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Posted September 24, 2020 Well spotted Dave, I have looked at Ohmura sensei's site many times and that just did not register. So, I think you might have answered the question Dave...considering that the specs for a rinji mounted sword was 2 holes in a slightly longer tang, a short tang would not be considered good...maybe that's the answer? Will be interested to see if any NMB member has an old blade in rinji mounts. Thanks, Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 8 hours ago, vajo said: Yes George. Only the Nagamitsu has the stamp of the Osaka Rikugun Zoheisho with no. 3490. Ah, Chris, I've been looking for that one! I have a photo of the stamped mune, but not the nakago with mei and date. Could you PM me with those possibly (simply just to keep from sidetracking George's topic). Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 8 hours ago, george trotter said: Obviously this company received govt. produced "stock standard" rinji mounting parts George, You may have answered your original question. It could be a simple as: blades made for Govt standard Rinji fittings (an prices) had to fit the Govt sized saya; whereas custom Rinji could literally be almost anything. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 I got this from DaveR on one of the "Type 3" threads. If my math is right, isn't it saying that the nagasa is to be 2 saku 2 sun = 66.6 cm? That seems kind of long, doesn't it, and not lining up with real life blades (once we get some actual measurements!)? I must say, though, that often the mil specs didn't always pan out in real life for gunto. Nick Komiya posted a note from Tojo, himself, who stated the RS model should be made of tamahagane! I also find it interesting that the bottom sketch of the fittings seems to have a release button on the koiguchi. 1 Quote
george trotter Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Posted September 24, 2020 Yes Bruce, you are right...I also have that drawing of "govt. mandated" RS mounts (pub. 1944) and the length given is 66.6 (maybe a maximum?) and it is what prompted me to ask about blade lengths as mine is only 62.5 cm. I also posted that pic above of my RJT Kanehide because it was in identical mounts (originally announced by Tojo in 1941) with 2 buttons. Also...what you say about Tojo saying the RS should be made of tamahagane makes sense as, if you look at any RJT blade in govt. mandated steel scabbard mounts, all RJT I have seen in these mounts have two buttons....but showato do not. My OP was a question about the blade lengths in govt. mandated steel scabbard RS mounts. Except for my RJT Kanehide blade above, we have not had any feedback details on these. I thought lots of NMB members had them? 1 Quote
vajo Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 I sent you a Mail Bruce hope you can use it. Quote
george trotter Posted October 2, 2020 Author Report Posted October 2, 2020 Just on the OP...I know I began this post as a query on the different blade lengths of Seki-made Rinji compared to private-made Rinji, but since we didn't get any responses concerning other Seki-made Rinji blade lengths, I thought I'd ask another question: (this is for your fact list Bruce) here is a pic of my two Munetoshi blades I referred to elsewhere as being different length blades according to their period/mounts...i.e. blades got shorter with the Rinji mounts (I know the picture in the OP shows a Rinji with a 69.5 cm blade, but maybe some feedback on Munetoshi might help us understand better) Details are (top) Type 98 - Yamagami Munetoshi 16/9 - o/n 308 - length 66.0 cm - med/long kissaki (private order). (bottom) RS - Yamagami Munetoshi 18/5 - o/n matsu 1080 - length 64.0 cm - short kissaki (RJT). The Rinji drawing above shows that the blade length should be 66.6 cm, but this one is 64.0 cm. (in fact the Type 98 is 66.0 cm)...so maybe if members send in some dimensions we can see if the Rinji rule was obeyed...or as is usually the case with things Japanese, never say always... 2 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 2, 2020 Report Posted October 2, 2020 George, There is a guy on NMB who has in his by-line that he collects Type 3 gunto, but I can't remember who that is. If we could stir him up, he could probably give us some good data. Quote
george trotter Posted October 2, 2020 Author Report Posted October 2, 2020 Let's hope so Bruce. Maybe there are relatively few Rinji in collections?...we don't seem to be getting much info. I know I have 11 swords as follows: 5 Type 98 - 5 Rinji - 1 civilian mounted with a leather cover...which is about 50% Rinji...I don't think this is normal...I just happen to have stumbled across them over the years...I am a "blade first - fittings second" kind of guy, so have just "happened" to end up with this many. Lets hope we hear something...but maybe it is a "nothing-burger" query? maybe there is no real following of any "Rinji Rule"...you know what the Japanese are like. Regards, 1 Quote
vajo Posted October 2, 2020 Report Posted October 2, 2020 16 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said: George, There is a guy on NMB who has in his by-line that he collects Type 3 gunto, but I can't remember who that is. If we could stir him up, he could probably give us some good data. Me? 😂 1 Quote
george trotter Posted October 2, 2020 Author Report Posted October 2, 2020 Yes, maybe Bruce means you Chris. You provided good info on your personal collection of Rinji blade lengths (all seem close to the 66.6 cm "rule"), but I thought maybe if we can get some blades by the same makers in both Type 98 and Rinji mounts we can see if a shorter blade "rule" was demanded. What you said earlier about maybe the blades under government control had to fit the government scabbard length but private order, even in Rinji mounts, could be whatever the customer wanted...just don't know how the system worked. Regards, Quote
vajo Posted October 2, 2020 Report Posted October 2, 2020 Ah i understand here's my list. Rinji/ Type 3 Masayoshi 66,4 cm (1944) Yoshitada 62,5 cm (1943) Munemitsu 65,8 cm (1943) Akihisa 64,7 cm (1943) Nagamitsu 65,7 cm (--) Type 98: Hisakuni 68,0 cm (--) Masatsugu 67,5 cm (1944) Morimitsu 62,5 cm (1945) Morinobu 67,0 cm (1942) Okimasa 65,15 cm (1938) Suketada 66,0 cm (--) Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 2, 2020 Report Posted October 2, 2020 29 minutes ago, vajo said: Me? I might be thinking of you, Chris. Did your byline used to say something like "Collecting Type 3"? Seems like there is one other guy doing it too, though. Quote
vajo Posted October 2, 2020 Report Posted October 2, 2020 Neil had a big collection maybe he can help further. Quote
BANGBANGSAN Posted October 3, 2020 Report Posted October 3, 2020 Chris I normally call it Type 3 as well. 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 3, 2020 Report Posted October 3, 2020 11 hours ago, vajo said: normaly use the term type3 Yes, but I was talking about the byline, the line under your name. Now it says “Gendaito - Swords of the Rikugun Jumei Tosho”. Isn’t that new? I believe it used to say something about “collecting Type 3”. If not, then there is someone else that I am thinking of. Quote
george trotter Posted October 3, 2020 Author Report Posted October 3, 2020 Thank you for the list of lengths Chris...it seems Type 98 are a bit longer, but hard to tell as it is all different smiths. I hope there are a couple of members who have Type 98 and Type Rinji by the same smith...then we might see if there is a trend for smiths to "go shorter" when in Rinji mounts (or maybe it is when it has a star stamp?). Maybe this query is a waste of time and is actually going nowhere? Regards, 1 Quote
IJASWORDS Posted October 3, 2020 Report Posted October 3, 2020 Rinji.... Katsumasa.... 68.2 Katsumasa.....68.1 Noringa.....68.5 Yoshitada.....69.0 Tomonari (star stamp).....66.8 Nagamitsu.....65.8 Kaneyoshi (star stamp).....67.5 Emura.....68.5 Quote
vajo Posted October 3, 2020 Report Posted October 3, 2020 7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said: Yes, but I was talking about the byline, the line under your name. Now it says “Gendaito - Swords of the Rikugun Jumei Tosho”. Isn’t that new? I believe it used to say something about “collecting Type 3”. If not, then there is someone else that I am thinking of. Hmm i have it there since 2 years i think... 😉 When you google for the word gendaito you will find it under the first 10 links. So i think it is not really new. Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted October 3, 2020 Report Posted October 3, 2020 You are thinking of @reeder Bruce. 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 3, 2020 Report Posted October 3, 2020 5 hours ago, IJASWORDS said: Rinji.... Neil, Thanks! Can you tell us which ones of those are in the light-tan, standard fittings? They all seem longer than George's theory of the 62cm for standard blades. Quote
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