Munetoshi traditional ????

[davidequis]

Thought I had better start a new thread, rather than sidetrack other threads.

 

This October 1942, version occupies a window a month prior to the brothers having the star-stamp applied to their swords. 

 

The fittings all bear 98, which I assume makes it a 98 version.

 

What are the expert opinions of the steel?

 

Is it tamahagane tradional Or mill steel?

 

Is it an interesting wall hanging or something better?

 

many thanks in advance for your assistance.

[davidequis]

Further pics.

There seem to be faint marks of what might have been paint or ink.

[PNSSHOGUN]

I can see clear Nie and Jihada so looks like Gendaito to me. The numbers on the parts are just assembly numbers, the mounts are of the Type 3 variant.

[davidequis]

Thank you John, 

 

I’m very new to this field. 

 

Am I correct to interpret “nie”, “jihada” & “Gendaito” as, “this Munetoshi is a quality blade, made traditionally (folded and water quenched) and probably from tamahagane”?

 

(reassurance to all, that this is a family heirloom and not for sale. Just seeking to establish its story - heirlooms without stories are just objects)

 

 

[Babu]

I don't think it's possible to confirm if it is made from tamahagane or not.

Even if this Smith was given an allocation, that still would not confirm this particular blade was made from tamahagane as he would also have made and signed blades of non traditional construct.

All you could possibly determine is if it was water or oil quenched.

 I'm No expert but logic occasionally kicks in.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I agree.  Not enough is known about the Matsu stamp to speak authoritatively about it's meaning.  If it is, in fact, the inspection stamp of the Osaka Supervisory Unit of the Kokura Arsenal, then we can say that your blade was made using traditional methods, but with non-tamahagane steel, making it, officially non-traditional.  George Trotter believes, though, the stamp was just being used by the Yamagami brothers.  I haven't done enough survey work to prove that right or wrong, but if true, then the meaning of the stamp could be something else.

 

I've lost track, and don't remember if you've shown us the saya for your gunto.  If it has double release buttons, that could be another indicator that the blade is traditionally made. 

 

Can't make out enough detail on the painted items you circled, but paint on a blade is always (can I use that word?!) tied to the fitter's assembly numbers.  Sometimes they don't match the numbers on the fittings, but often they are the same.

 

You can read the history and story of the Contingency model fittings, or Rinji seishiki, on this Warrelics Thread.

[vajo]

Can you show a better picture of the tsuka? A lacquered tsuka is often a piont for a gendai-to blade. 

[davidequis]

[davidequis]

The leather cover on the saya does not come off. Possibly put on wet and shrunk or just shrunk with age. 

What can be seen of the saya under the leather, has the same rough look and texture of the tsuka.

[george trotter]

Hi, There has been some comment on the possibility of this smith Munetoshi making non-traditional swords (showato). I think this definitely did not happen!

Your smith was Yamagami Wakakichi (Munetoshi). He was born 27 Dec. 1902. He and his brother Akihisa were both trained under the famous Kasama Shigetsugu in Tokyo and then set up a forge together back in Niigata and made quality swords for army officers. Munetoshi used a different character for 'mune' (the one seen on your sword) after he became an RJT smith for the army. A little mystery for me is that your sword has no RJT star stamp (you say) but he is using his 'new' name character...I have only ever seen it with a star.

Bruce Pennington and I have been trying to "unravel' the mystery of the 'matsu' stamp etc used by the Yamagami brothers, but no luck yet...and your later used mune character and no star messes things up more.

I have 2 swords by Munetoshi...one is Type 98 mounts with original mune name charcter and one is identical to yours, but with star.

Both brothers returned to swordmaking after the war.

 

If you want to check out the details of the two signatures/mountings/stamps etc on both my Munetoshi blades, you can download my little article on the NMB index page (top) called 'Trotter Collection' ...check out swords #3 and #6.

 

You have got a good hand-made WWII sword there...just gently oil the blade...try to gently 'stabilise' the mounting wear, and enjoy forever!.

Regards,

[vajo]

George with his amount of great knowledge say it. Thanks George.

 

Take a good care of your valuable sword. An handle it with care und preserve the blade correctly. Keep your eyes on the Koshirae and avoid anything to damage it.

[davidequis]

  On 9/21/2020 at 6:01 AM, george trotter said:

Hi, There has been some comment on the possibility of this smith Munetoshi making non-traditional swords (showato). I think this definitely did not happen!

Your smith was Yamagami Wakakichi (Munetoshi). He was born 27 Dec. 1902. He and his brother Akihisa were both trained under the famous Kasama Shigetsugu in Tokyo and then set up a forge together back in Niigata and made quality swords for army officers. Munetoshi used a different character for 'mune' (the one seen on your sword) after he became an RJT smith for the army. A little mystery for me is that your sword has no RJT star stamp (you say) but he is using his 'new' name character...I have only ever seen it with a star.

Bruce Pennington and I have been trying to "unravel' the mystery of the 'matsu' stamp etc used by the Yamagami brothers, but no luck yet...and your later used mune character and no star messes things up more.

I have 2 swords by Munetoshi...one is Type 98 mounts with original mune name charcter and one is identical to yours, but with star.

Both brothers returned to swordmaking after the war.

 

If you want to check out the details of the two signatures/mountings/stamps etc on both my Munetoshi blades, you can download my little article on the NMB index page (top) called 'Trotter Collection' ...check out swords #3 and #6.

 

You have got a good hand-made WWII sword there...just gently oil the blade...try to gently 'stabilise' the mounting wear, and enjoy forever!.

Regards,

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Thank you George,

 

Your collection is special and information very educational.

 

I’m  very pleased that this sword has presented you and Bruce with new and confusing information with regard to matsu stamp🙂

 

I have provided both sides of nakago for you - definitely no star. 

 

What we know of provenance.

It was acquired by a member of the Australian 4th field ambulance somewhere in PNG. We are in process of requesting his military record to identify potential dates and locations.

He returned to Brisbane, where the sword sat in his house, preserved in cosmoline until he died and it passed to his grandnephew (my son).

 

Research so far, suggests that it probably arrived in PNG with a reinforcement battalion that was relocated from Indochina to Rabaul in Jan, 1943. It makes sense that new recruits would be picked up in Nov/dec 42, with their newly acquired blades. 

 

Some advice on mekugi, the front mekugi is longer than the rear - is this usual?

 

The front mekugi was stuck - somewhere in its history someone had tried to remove it and stripped the head. Do we try for a replacement mekugi or spot weld the head to build up steel and cut a new slot or use a wooden peg? The existing mekugi is not going back in due to the risk of never getting it out again.

 

many thanks

 

 

[george trotter]

Interesting info Dave. I'm sure Bruce likes a marking challenge haha...

Yes, I would get someone competent to re-build the head and then re-shape and re-slot. I say this as the thread is (I think) unique, and best to keep the screw if possible.

Again, yes, the top screw is often longer than the rear screw.

Have fun and look after it...now 80 years since it was made.

Regards,

[davidequis]

Thank you to everyone who has offered assistance. 

 

I’m something of an addict atm.

 

My Pa also brought a sword back from PNG... unfortunately not in my possession but hopefully I can get access.

 

It’s provenance is better known and was surrendered to my Pa in bougainville - it might be special.

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

David that sounds most intriguing, we would all be very interested in hearing the story and seeing the sword surrendered to your father. 

[davidequis]

  On 9/22/2020 at 7:57 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

David that sounds most intriguing, we would all be very interested in hearing the story and seeing the sword surrendered to your father. 

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My grandpa 🙂