Need Help Marine Raider WWII bring back sword

[suwanneetrader]

I know just a little about Japanese swords. I collect USMC items especially WWI and WWII. This sword is not like the NCO ones I have had with metal scabbard, showa stamp, etc. It was brought back by a member of Carlson's Raiders. The blade is approx. 27 1/8" long, it is not rusted, stained or nicked, but the wavy temper lines I can not see. The handle is approx 9 1/2" long. The guard seems to be solid silver and the cranes on each side of the hilt gold. I only see markings on one side of the 2 holed tang (there is a 3rd smaller hole near the top tip of the tang). I hope I load the photos correctly. I believe your terms allow only three photos so, I will show an overall, the tang markings and the silver guard, plus any others site will allow. Would someone tell me who made it, when and ballpark value. It is in an estate and I only want the documented raider items, but I have to buy all offered items to get the one or two I want to keep. Therefore help me and I will try to see this item goes to one of you collectors (that is if it is worthy of your collection???) I do not know but think it is an old blade.

[pcfarrar]

It's in tachi mounts, signed Kuniyoshi and possibly koto. I'm sure there are members here that will give you a few thousand dollars for it.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

this blade is signed Kuniyoshi, Awataguchi Kuniyoshi worked in kamakura period (koan 1278) and was a very big name (saijo saku) if this signature is genuine you own a treasure.

 

More pics (whole nakago and close-up of the blade) should be helpful.

[pcfarrar]

Hi,

 

this blade is signed Kuniyoshi, Awataguchi Kuniyoshi worked in kamakura period (koan 1278) and was a very big name (saijo saku) if this signature is genuine you own a treasure.

 

There's another 50+ smiths signing Kuniyoshi you don't want to get his hopes up too much. :lol:

[suwanneetrader]

Thank-you I will continue to look at replies and tomorrow or the next day I will try to contact the executor, if I can not work out something maybe I can let you know and anyone in your group can contact him direct. The items I want are worth approx. $1,000.00 but he insists this sword has to go also. Thank-you Richard an old retired guy in FL

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

There's another 50+ smiths signing Kuniyoshi you don't want to get his hopes up too much.

 

These signing in this way and with these ji are not so numerous

[shan]

Careful boys........

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I think this blade merits some attention; maybe a shoshin Awataguchi Kuniyoshi? That would be "miraculous", but its sugata with a ko kissaki and funbari (for what i can see) lets me think it could be a kamakura one (not like yours possibly Heian/Kamakura Shan )

[shan]

Ha ha very funny Jacques :lol:

However....In my defence.......................I went on information supplied by the seller,which in this case was a Very very noted and respected High End dealer

I have probably been well and truly "had" to some degree (Big Time) ,as i have been laughed at and ridiculed for quoting the sales pitch that lead me to buy this item, from almost all on the forum and elsewhere. (chinese modern blade,junk,trash etc..etc)

Only a small handful have agreed that the blade may come to something more (and they were all polishers after extra work)

This just goes to show that even your forums theories on where to buy are not always right.

 

No matter who or where you find an item in the field of Nihonto, you can still be the victim of spurious attribution and not even the larger dealers offer foolproof protection as if they have bought poorly they need to recover there money.

I now always treat potential new items as ordinary until proven otherwise.NTHK NBTHK Honami Sansan Kato or other reputable origami accepted.Otherwise its just a run of the mill gimei blade.

So now i am a cynic.

I also had blades that all the experts declaired "could be early soshu" or "Bizen osafune 1500" or whatever and they in the end turned out to be nothing more than the junk you admonish me about presenting on the forum.

But fear not .....i am learning (the hard way)

regards

shan

[Rich Thomas]

I'd like to talk more about it...email me via my website if you want http://www.bushidoboutique.net

cheers

Richard T

[Stephen]

lets not confuse the original post with your sword shan, if you want to talk about it go back to that post, I'm sure suwannee or what ever his name is wants to know about his sword. please post more pix as requested and don't forget to sign off with your name.

[Jean]

KUNIYOSHI BUNKASAI HO-JI 1247 YAMASHIRO 227 K 302 KUN 1828 SAI-JO/JUYO 2000 father/teacher NORIKUNI

 

from ShoShin site, period is different from the one given by Jacques, it should be croos checked between Hawley, Toka Taikan, Fujishiro

 

A whole picture of the blade (tang to tip) will be welcome. What are blade measurements, nagasa, sori, width at the hamachi/at the yokote

 

I am not sure the suguta and measurements fit this :

 

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/im ... lution.jpg

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

from ShoShin site, period is different from the one given by Jacques, it should be croos checked between Hawley, Toka Taikan, Fujishiro

 

Quote Fujishiro,

 

He is the son of Awataguchi Norikuni, the father of Norimitsu, and was called Sahyôenojô. Viewed from the fact that there is a work of his with "KÔAN SHICHINEN JÛNIGATSU JÛROKU HI" in the nengo, it can be confirmed that he was a smith of around this period. However, it is thought that his works extend beyond Kôan, and that he was a contemporary of Rai Kunitoshi. His works include tachi, and there are also many tantô. Hamon is sugu ashi iri, and there are also some with nijûba.

 

Koza places him around Kencho (1249/1256).

 

Some samples of his mei:

 

[Jean]

Thanks Jacques for the info.

 

I don't like the kanji "yoshi" in the mei. Don' match the given example : shoshin mei the yoshi box is closed, on this sword it appears to be opend on the upper left.

 

on the soshin examples the upper part of the knji is not centered but slightly shifted to the right. on this sword it seems centered.

 

on this sword the upper part of the Yoshi kanji, the vertical stroke seems to cross the horizontal one

[shan]

Hello,

As per the findings above and in addition.

I have split the colour chanels of the image of the mei posted by the originator and there are these Anomalies in addition to the above mentioned.

In the sample mei the Yoshi character has an almost identical (90% smaller)length second top line cross to the yoshi and the samples from Fujishiro have a clear difference between the length of these lines (50% or smaller).

The Box for the yoshi character is on the sample two strokes and open at top left and bottom right corners.Not the same as the genuine examples.

the Kuni character is open top left and bottom right on the sample.

It seems the mei carver did not close his box Kanji at top left and bottom right corners.

This is not the case with the genuine Mei.

This is Gimei Gentlemen.based on the supplied information.

Regards

Shan

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Five samples of mei, all different. As i'm far from an expert, on this one i will shut up.

 

Sugata of a shoshin Kuniyoshi (nagasa 72,6cm):

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Whatever it is I would suggest the original owner to take good care of it and show it

in person to someone knowledgeable enough.

[shan]

Hello ,

Points taken and With all due respect, I agree, I am no expert either and the blade should be checked, but I know what I see and the five samples of mei although different to some degree show similar characteristics and are likely done at different stages in the smiths life.

I have been told before that the mei of a 30 year old smith May/will have acceptable differences with the mei of the 70 year old smith and this makes very good sense.

The posted mei shows none of the common characteristics of the smiths mei, bar one,the name of the smith is the same.

I would love to be proved wrong for the original poster of this question but its not looking good based on those comparisons.

It is the blade that will ultimately determine the smith even if the mei is not genuine and although the mei is in question the blade may not be. However we see nothing of the blade so everything is based on what we can see.

Its an unfair position to be in , when trying to determine authenticity so we must rely on information supplied and an analytical approach. The mei I see in the 5 samples sadly bears little or no resemblance to the mei posted by the rather cryptic and reticent new member who’s name I still do not know. The sword image just posted by Jacques further enhances my opinion as it is a "dead ringer for at least 2 of the 5 Sample mei given by him earlier.Best of luck and i hope it is a national treasure you will be in the $$$$ if it is. But for me I am not convinced based on what I see, sorry.

Regards

Shan

NB this is only an opinion and not meant to offend.

[suwanneetrader]

Your posts are interesting but I being not knowledgable in your hobby do not understand most of it. As far as my ID and being honorable person. My name is Richard M. I was President of Florida Gun Collectors in the 70's. and secretary for approx 12 years. I'm 70 years old. My wife is Ojibwe Indian from Canada, so we collect American Indian and USMC WWI thru Korean War. I have knowledge of American Federal Period swords, not Japanese. Before selling my collection in late 90's I had the largest, most complete collection of swords by Nathan Starr as well as other weapons by the Starr Family. I buy and sell militaria items to supplement my retirement. The executor was the best friend of the deceased raider, who retired as a Marine Corp. officer, and who told him this blade was 700 years old and valuable. Therefore as the executor is financially very secure he does not seem in a hurry to sell and seems to be using me to do the leg work, etc. on getting him a fair price but, I have found him not willing to commit himself to what he thinks is fair. Therefore we all, myself included, maybe waisting our time, but I will try for awhile longer. The blade is 27 1/8" long and the handle is approx 9 1/2" long. The sword is no longer in my possession so no more photos at this time. I will post two that did not seem to be as clear as those you have. Thanks for reading, I'm not a crook !!

[Guest nickn]

shan why gimei?

its just as likely to be sho shin but by one of the 50+ other smiths called yoshikuni that we know of

nice sword reasonable mounts i would like it

[remzy]

I wonder why there is a katana tsuba on a tachi mount, the carving is upside down, might not mean much but still made me go "hmm".

[shan]

Hi Nick,

Its a nice blade and i would have it as well but for the mounts mostly as i can see very little of the blade and nore can anyone else.

As i stated based on the mei examples and the immediate assumption that this was a missing "national treasure" it clearly is not,Yes it may still be nice and may well be from another smith with the same name but no-one has offered up a comparison mei that will collabourate this as of yet.

Maybe not gimei then (god knows how fast that attribution can be made based on poor or similar kanji) but not from the period or smith that all thought it was from at first for sure.

I have to say that this whole post leaves me feeling slightly uninformed,the images are "tempters" and the descriptions and reasons don`t sit comfortably with me.

"If you want the $1000 items you have to have this priceless sword as well or no deal" would not an executor of an estate generally reaserch the items first to get a rough value, without the need to force this clearly good item onto some hapless buyer who only wanted the coffee maker and tea set?

Its been a bit wierd from the start really but maybe thats just me and these things do happen in the USA.

I know that anyone disposing of an estate in the UK would at the very least get the best price possible for any item that was left ,not just force it on sombody to make a deal.

Maybe i am a fool (undoubtedly) so sorry, but this just makes me think that its a con of some sort or just a wind up for the forum.

Its just another national treasure thats turned up in someones trash can and i don`t think thats really how it happens.

sorry

shan

[Grey Doffin]

Excuse me but I think this is uncalled for. Richard came to us with a legitimate question seeking help. Nothing he has told us seems the least bit strange to me; I can imagine someone in charge of an estate acting exactly as Richard says he has acted. Questioning Richard's honesty or motive is, I think, entirely out of line.

What's more, Richard gave us his name on his 2nd post on page one of this thread.

Back to friendly sword talk, please.

Grey

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

As i stated based on the mei examples and the immediate assumption that this was a missing "national treasure" it clearly is not,

 

shan please read correctly

 

I said :

 

this blade is signed Kuniyoshi, Awataguchi Kuniyoshi worked in kamakura period (koan 1278) and was a very big name (saijo saku) if this signature is genuine you own a treasure.

 

And some posts further

 

I think this blade merits some attention; maybe a shoshin Awataguchi Kuniyoshi? That would be "miraculous", but its sugata with a ko kissaki and funbari (for what i can see) lets me think it could be a kamakura one (not like yours possibly Heian/Kamakura Shan)

 

I say this blade can be a Kamakura one and needs to be seen by an expert, that's all.

[shan]

Hi again,

Well what do i know about how the system works in the USA.

I have responded to information supplied and all information has been referencing Awataguchi Kuniyoshi who worked in the kamakura period so "backtracking" (no offence Jacques) is not an option here.Everything said and submitted that my narrow mind saw,related to the Kamakura smith as far as i could see.

I have then looked at the execution of the mei on the blade in question and then at the supplied genuine mei and thats all.

If i find it strange that this is how Probate or an Estate is desposed of in the USA then thats my problem and for that i am sorry Richard(never saw your name in the posts sorry)

I doubt that the motives of Richard are other than genuine but i have no idea and do not KNOW, as Richard has contributed very little to date since the first post and certainly can stick up for himself if he finds anything i say offensive in any way.

I do not know the seller so cannot judge exactly what his motives are, but i fail to see what the problem is with this item, unless the items Richard wants are $1000 and the executor insists he also takes the Tachi for an extra $5,000.(which seems unlikely but may very well still be a good price as it appears in good condition)

Lanes armoury in the UK would sell that item after polish for around £5-8000+ ( at a guess)even if Gimei and probably succeed in selling it fast.If it was real sho shin,well they have some very Prestigious clientele,(you have probably bought some of their Albums or CD`s at some time)

I am looking at the mei supplied and the examples supplied and they are not the same or do you dissagree?

I am then looking for poster feedback and on seeing no responces and it just makes me nervous.

Now i voice my feelings Bluntly as the mediators sugested in another post whence returned from Japan and i am a heratic.(and i have had such good teachers at this)

I have said it before and i will say it again,Everyone knows Japanese swords are worth Money.

If the poster gave us references as to how ridiculous the sum was that the estate has asked for we could then judge its viability and say no ite not worth that to me or something like that.

I also know that a few of you are already rubbing your hands together over this Item and I would love to know how many PM`s have been sent.

Again with all due respects to you, Richard the Original poster (and the whole world),but forum members-your averice was played upon with the first of these posts.

"I will try to see this item goes to one of you collectors (that is if it is worthy of your collection???)" Hmmm cheeky tactic but it worked.

Sorry i will refrain from any more contrabutions to this post.

Dear Richard,

Its a lovely item (of that i have no doubt)and motives aside and going on "face value" it will be better placed within a specialist Sale of Nihonto at one of the Major auction houses like Sothebys.It will attract much interest and will either sell very well or it wont sell at all and if that is the case,you lose nothing and can then offer it to another interested party on this forum or on ebay where again it will get a lot of interest.Get it looked at by someone who is not a dealer and has no interest in aquiring it first,Find out if the mei is genuine to a period smith and that is the first move,then once its confirmed ,only then get its monetary value from someone who gains from its highest value (not lowest for resale),thats my advice.

Regards

Shan

[shan]

I would also like to Point out that these posts replies are not coming into view systematically.

Nickn was the reply directly under my post when i replied to him about Gimei and the poster Richard had no reply when i looked.Now he has one after Nickn`s responce.If i had seen that my responce would have been different.

Its a bit unfair that i respond to what i see, then another post seems to materialise inbetween my reply but a day or so after.

Why is that delay happening Brian?

regards

shan

 

Reply - Brian: This is not the case, and cannot happen. Likely replies are posted while others are being written, and are not seen until later.

[Brian]

Grey has posted before the mods had a chance to, and I urge you to heed his advice Shan. I will not allow every newcomer to be put through the mill and have to prove their intentions. This is a friendly forum and we don't jump on every poster looking for any odd signs.

The fact is that Richard came here looking for advice, and not to sell anything. We are ALL fully aware of that fact that if anything ever went towards a deal with anyone, then the standard advice of buyer beware exists and it would be up to the buyer to ensure they are confident of the deal. We are an informative site with the benefit of trying to assist with sales and purchases. Not the other way around.

Richard, please accept the apologies of the forum, and please feel free to update us with any info.

 

Brian

[suwanneetrader]

Brian Thank-you for your kindness. I have a few e-mails offering $1,000.00, I will show the emails, and offer the executor (I do not believe he was court appointed just the very best friend and neighbor to whom the old Marine left alot of things) $2,000.00 for the sword and other items as he has refused to price anything. If he says once again "I have to think about it", then I will ask him if I can post his name and phone number on this forum and when he sells trust he gives me the other items and/or a commission. If I do get this sword, no matter what it turns out to be, some people on this site will be very very welcome to look, etc. and some I care not to associate with no matter the $ value. I have collected and studied American ANTIQUE Weapons but after I retired my son's neighbor offered me a German Luger and as I had not been able to afford to keep any I found when I was helping to raise 8 children, I thought I would like to have it. He, like this man, wanted an offer. I went on the Lugerforum web site and found out alot about it and its fairly scarce variation due to unit markings, etc. They were all extremely nice and from all over the world. None of them felt I was trying to do something shady, but I guess every club has to have at least one. I agree buyers should be careful but don't say someone is trying to cheat you when you were not asked to buy in the first place. I did not and still do not know if this is a $1,000. - $10,000. or a $100,000.00 item and I did not expect to get a free appraisal, especially with a few poor photos, just some guidance and to those who have offered guidance I THANK-YOU. I did not give my last name as I do not want to have some so and so do bad things to me or my identity, if you know any old time collectors in FL or KY, shooters at the NMLRA, or Political Action ProGun workers at NRA-ILA. many know me. Thank-you and Good Health for you and yours. Richard L. M

[Marius]

Richard,

 

this sword really should be taken to an expert. A recommended polisher (and there are only a few qualified polishers in the USA) will certainly give an opinion. Alsdo, a window (which is the polishing of just one small part of the sword) would disclose more details - this window must not be done by any amateur!

 

I am sure that the forum members will recommend an expert polisher.

[John A Stuart]

I see nothing but a potentially good sword. Everything bespeaks quality, except some of the comments. John