Fake or real?

[hillman]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Japanese-wa ... 240%3A1308

 

Hmmm, the link above shows a sword that makes me think that the fakes on eBay are getting better.

 

The off-center mekugi-ana and weird mei indicates a fake for me, not to mention the odd tsukamaki, but any other opinions out there?

 

Kade

[Brian]

Nakago, tsukamaki and fittings don't look good to me.

 

Brian

[Grey Doffin]

The date reads "Kagen Ni Nen", 1304. Didn't bother translating the mei because I'm certain this isn't a 700 year old Nihonto. My guess is that the blade is from one of the Chinese or Thai knockoff factories, but not low end. Looks like what we would call a hand made blade but given the date, bad patination of the nakago, and the cheesy tsuka-maki, I doubt it's Japanese.

Grey

[goose710]

Gentlemen

I believe that's a Cheness Kaze tsuba, or knock off thereof

Charles L. Grusovnik

[kanetoyo]

Hi All

 

This signature is Chinese kanji. It's not Japanese kanji. Also Rust of nakago is very young. It's chinese sword.

 

Nakamura

[Guest Aristeas]

Hi all,

new poster from Oz. Another indicator is the other sword he's selling which screams Chinese fake.

[James]

Welcome Aristeas - good to see another Aussie on board.

 

I sent a message to the seller of the fakes advising him that his swords are Chinese fakes so he shouldn't advertise them as Japanese antiques. Needless to say, I received no reply...

[kusunokimasahige]

I also saw this and immediately thought, replica!

 

Looks like a Paul Chen one rather than Cheness to me

 

16 bidders??

 

idiots..

 

anyway, a new trick i have found is an item put on ebay with only one bid at the starting price...

 

(probably by a befriended person) and when people bid, they can go on and on and on untill the friendly bid has been passed, normally somewhere around 400 US$

 

How they do that i dont know yet..

 

KM

[Henry Stewart]

Gentlemen

 

One of my primary interest is fakes,especially the steel. Ive several good examples.

Ive just bought this one so we will soon know;( I havent told the seller).

The only thing I can say at this moment is that the signature is rubbish,but we shall see.

 

Henry

[Bungo]

" This signature is Chinese kanji. It's not Japanese kanji "

 

correct me if I am wrong, there's no such thing as " Chinese " kanji.......

kanji means " letter of Han " ?....in other words, Chinese characters.

Japanese may pronounce the kanji differently from Chinese, but the character itself is Chinese ( the meaning could change/different , of course. )

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji

 

 

milt

[Kajihei]

there's no such thing as " Chinese " kanji.......

 

Both Japanese and Chinese had "simplified" the classical kanji characters over the years, and as a result, kanji characters used today in Japan and Mainland China are not necessarily the same. We refer to them as Japanese kanji and Chinese kanji. The Japanese did major simplification after WW-II, and the Chinese after the 1949 Communist Revolution. Classical kanji are still used in Hong Kong and Taiwan.

 

The nakago inscription contains kanji characters used only in post-revolution China, nowhere else. They often make this "mistake" and that is a dead giveaway.

 

Kaji

[Bungo]

" Both Japanese and Chinese had "simplified" the classical kanji characters over the years, and as a result, kanji characters used today in Japan and Mainland China are not necessarily the same. We refer to them as Japanese kanji and Chinese kanji. The Japanese did major simplification after WW-II, and the Chinese after the 1949 Communist Revolution. Classical kanji are still used in Hong Kong and Taiwan. "

 

I doubt any self respecting Chinese, be they oversea or in their native lands , would refer to the " Chinese letters "

as " Kanji " , let alone " Chinese Kanji ".

Just my opinion, of course.

p.s. same reason why I ask the Japanese members on this board to help me translate painting mei written in KANJI, even though I can read them " prefectly well " in the " Chinese form ". But since they are Japanese painting, they should be read the Japanese way out of respect to the artists.

Case in point is the " genuine smile dude " which Morita san read it correctly as "真笑翁" "Shinsho-oh"

 

pps. to further clarify what I am driving at.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus

 

 

 

 

Milt

[Henry Stewart]

Gentlemen.I had not gone far into my studies several years ago when I came across the fondness of Artisans for replication, the nearer the better,and it did not just apply to weapons.I am reminded of thelate Mr.William Hawleys comment that some 98% of named smith signatures from an era were probably forged;(see his paper on marks on blades)To all of us who work primarily with our hands comes the urge occaisionally to copy the best work amongst our peers,neither is it confined to the Japanese nation,or indeed Nihonto. Of course I do not include in this the counterfeiter who seeks to profit at the expense of others. I have noticed since commencing to collect Nihonto that the counterfeit blades on sale are steadily becoming more sophisticated. Now it takes time to actually make a good copy,the better it is the more time it takes. I have seen examples where it has taken a great deal of time effort and not a little skill to complete,and as the price approaches nearer the real mccoy,one has to wonder is it worth it.The collector starting out should be very careful.

 

Henry

[Bungo]

" I have seen examples where it has taken a great deal of time effort and not a little skill to complete,and as the price approaches nearer the real mccoy,one has to wonder is it worth it.The collector starting out should be very careful."

...........................................................................

 

agree with that 100 %

 

one reason why I don't buy ceramics anymore...........another dangerous field is the Japanese prints .

Especially the later ones from Meiji on........ so many reprint, different editions. I can't keep them straight and the asking price is so high ( compare to some edo period ones ) for " modern " prints, one mistake will set you back for years ( unless you are independently wealthy ).

 

 

Milt

[kusunokimasahige]

Well spoken Henry!

 

about kanji, I remember one of my fellow students of Japanese getting a memo from his Shachoo in Japan which he couldnt read... he showed it to several others who also couldnt read it...

 

then went to the shachoo, who also couldnt read his own memo in quick writing anymore...

 

:lol:

 

BTW Henry great idea to start collecting fakes, I also thought about that one day..

 

KM

[Henry Stewart]

Gentlemen

Thank you KM and Milt for your kind agreements; The fakes I seek go alongside the genuine article so the viewer may see the difference.I buy only the shall we say good fakes,before anyone jumps on me I recognise it is a contradiction in terms,but some of the good fakes have caused many a row and taken ages to detect.As for Kanji,we are all aware it came from China,and the Japanese still use some of the original but what is generally little known are the various styles of Kanji and that most technocrats in Japan make very little use of most of them.I have to advise; learn about the steel,the appearance, does it please you; do you know that nioi can be faked but nie cannot.. I was entertaining hopes of putting together a small pamphlet containing some of the home truths about fakes in the hope it may do some good,but there seems to be one or two scholarly tomes already on the web;

 

Henry

[Bungo]

" do you know that nioi can be faked but nie cannot"

 

we need, no DEMAND, more info on this !!

 

I often heard polisher can " draw " in the hamon or even make a hamon " missing " ( if you recall some OLD articles published by either the Southern Cal. club or the Northern Ca. club , there's this polisher named Nakajima ?? < something close to that > who was sort of " mal-treated " and he made a few hamon gone missing just as pay-back time ).

 

MIlt

[Brian]

Nie can be faked, but usually only by an expert, and not practically by someone looking to make fakes. There is an article somewhere showing how a top Japanese artisan can even drill tiny holes and insert tiny rods to fake nie. However this would probably only be done on a top level sword to increase value on an expensive sword to mislead people when the hamon drops off.

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/acid%20p ... ke%20hamon also has some info.

We won't get into too much debate on fakes on this forum, besides ther actual identification.

 

Brian

[kanetoyo]

there's no such thing as " Chinese " kanji.......

 

Both Japanese and Chinese had "simplified" the classical kanji characters over the years, and as a result, kanji characters used today in Japan and Mainland China are not necessarily the same. We refer to them as Japanese kanji and Chinese kanji. The Japanese did major simplification after WW-II, and the Chinese after the 1949 Communist Revolution. Classical kanji are still used in Hong Kong and Taiwan.

 

The nakago inscription contains kanji characters used only in post-revolution China, nowhere else. They often make this "mistake" and that is a dead giveaway.

 

kaji-san

 

Thank you for your detailed explanation about kanji.

 

Nakamura

[Henry Stewart]

Gentlemen;

Thank you Milt for the contribution,your answer to your questiion is affirmative; though I do take Brian's point. If you want further contact Milt ,I can be found on stwreev@aol.con or stwreev1@hotmail.co.uk; save blocking up the forum;

Rgards

Henry