When are Kicho papers "validated"?

[bigjohnshea]

When are Tokubetsu Kicho papers considered validated by another shinsa?

 

You'd think if nearly any other shinsa (NBTHK, NTHK, NTHK-NPO) agrees with them independently, then that would be validation enough? Yes? No? Maybe so?

[Gakusee]

Well, John, the obvious answer is by the NBTHK itself in a recent shinsa. 
Also, a Japanese speaker can call the NBTHK and ask for confirmation or their views of a Kicho paper. You need connections and Japanese for that. 

[bigjohnshea]

So another paper agreeing, from another shinsa group, doesn't cut it for ya?

[Jussi Ekholm]

I do think a lot is riding on the signature or the attribution, as all things are not equal.

[Hoshi]

Forget the kicho paper. Make a dense ball and toss it in the fireplace. 

 

If the sword comes back NBTHK Hozon, this is all you need.

[bigjohnshea]

😂 Okay. Thanks for that, Val.

 

I find it interesting that the paper would still be considered meaningless if another independent shinsa provided the same result.

 

Cheers!

[Rich S]

Late reading this thread. Why aren't Tokubetsu Kicho fine as they are? Used from 1950 thru 1982 by NBTHK.  What makes them any less useful for id-ing swords than any later papers. Don't see the reason for resubmitting for another shinsa.

Rich

[Fuuten]

Not too mention any of those that were issued in the first years. Weren't there specific years for those shady deals and weren't they mainly the ones at HQ?

[Rich S]

Yes, the NBTHK "scandal" was in the mid-late 1980's if I recall (?) correctly and at the main Tokyo HQ.  The old Tokubetsu Kicho (green papers) overlap about half of the current Hozon paper range.  Re-submission could result in a rejection today as some for the point range for green papers were below the current Hozon level. Why risk it and pay lots of bucks to the NBTHK again?

Rich

[Mark S.]

If you haven’t already read it, Darcy had an article about green papers in his August 2017 blog.  Look up “Green Papers = No Papers”.  Interesting read no matter what your view on these papers are.

 

https://blog.yuhindo.com/2017/08/

[Rich S]

Mark

Very interesting read on Darcy's blog. I was not aware the NBTHK had disavowed green papers.  I've never submitted a sword or fitting for shinsa, so haven't really paid much attention to papers. Thanks for the link.

Rich

[bigjohnshea]

If nothing else I'm glad that this thread brought that to Rich's attention.

 

Personally though, disavowed or not, if the green papers from decades ago agree with a good modern shinsa today (not sure it HAS to be NBTHK) then the blade HAS almost certainly got to have the kantei points needed to meet the attribution of the green papers. That's my opinion though. If others disagree, I'd love to know why.

 

Peace!

[Hoshi]

Is there something I don't catch in the point you're trying to make? The green paper remains utterly irrelevant regardless if it is proven TRUE or FALSE because the modern NBHTK paper is the certification gold standard and the green paper adds no new information to it in terms of the sword's attribution. 

 

Or put in less formal ways, roll in a ball, toss in fireplace 😂

 

Perhaps you could explain a little more your specific scenario? 

 

As for NBTHK, NTHK, NPO, etc...it's all contextual. 

 

BIG NAME Green paper by itself = hot garbage

BIG NAME Green paper + NTHK or NPO certificate in agreement = big suspicions: owner has been "rolling the attribution dice until results convenient" 

BIG NAME Green paper + NBTHK papers in agreement = never happens because green paper gets rolled and tossed into fireplace 😂

 

Now if it's medium name or small name on a signed sword, it's a different story. Then I trust NPO and NTHK papers because the US Shinsa is very convenient and paying 2K for hauling a blade to Japan to certify muromachi SUKESADA SAKU is just folly.  Would you pay Kyomaro price for a Kyomaro with green papers and NTHK-NPO certificate? Probably not. You'd wonder why the owner doesn't like FREE MONEY by sending the sword to Japan and getting NBHTK certification. You'd be right in most cases. Not all, but the vast majority. If the "Kyomaro" comes from a dealer or someone knowledgeable with swords and it feels cheap then shhhh! it's a trap! 

 

And this inevitably gets priced in. Lately there are a few NPO "mistakes" that even the Market won't buy - for instance a Wako by Shinkai which went unsold in the infamous auction. 6K, Shinkai Wako. If it had NBHTK paper it would have sold instantly. These guys process a lot of swords with limited time and without weighty references overseas, it's normal mistakes happen. 

 

This topic is a dead horse but as we saw with Rich it's good to sometimes beat it up again to make sure it's really DEAD 

[paulb]

John,

I think Chris has summarised the situation very clearly. In reality the debate has less to do with "is the sword authentic" than what is the markets perception of selling a blade with a green paper. If this was papered to Echizen Seki and confirmed by an NTHK paper I doubt many would be over concerned. But this is a big name and if authentic of relatively high value. This being the case the obvious buyer question would be "why hasn't it been resubmitted?"

I understand the arguments about inconvenience the ease of having a local shinsa paper compared to sending it to Japan but the brutal market reality is that there will always be the question "why hasn't it been resubmitted" and that will hold back the value.

[Ken-Hawaii]

John, if you have provenance on a blade, you want it to be valid provenance, & the old kicho papers aren't valid. Now, that being said, when I resubmitted one of my blades, & it came back with Hozon, I didn't throw out the kicho origami. I did staple a note to the kicho that they were no longer valid, in case the next caretaker wants to know the history.

[Rich S]

Yes, it is good to know that green papers were invalidated by the NBTHK. I guess many of the "old guys" were upset by that. I was at a couple big shows when the NBTHK held shinsa in the U.S. (no more) Back in the day (old geezer here) you could write and send an oshigata to the NBTHK asking questions, translations, etc. and in a month or two you'd get a letter from them (on their letterhead) answering. I guess that is also gone with the wind.  As I said above, I've never sent a blade for shinsa, nor purchased one.  BUT, I won't trash or burn any green papers, who knows in a few years they may be valuable (just the papers)  to have original Yakuza papers. 😉

Rich

[PNSSHOGUN]

Worthless for resale purposes, we all know that, but what about for your own purposes if you have no reason to sell?

[Mark S.]

7 minutes ago, Rich S said:

BUT, I won't trash or burn any green papers, who knows in a few years they may be valuable (just the papers)  to have original Yakuza papers. 😉

Rich

 

I would keep the green papers as a part of the blades history.  And even if the green papers are invalidated by a follow-up Shinsa, it would be interesting to see what they tried to pass the blade off as vs. what it is now thought to be... and to have a historical copy of green papers showing your blade was a part of the 'great controversy'.  

[Hoshi]

The problem with not tossing them in the fire pit is that these floating papers contribute to fraud. There is an aftermarket for green papers. The nakago "scrubbings" of the time aren't exactly distinctive and it's easy to doctor the paper. It's like having an old fake passport. Last I saw you can buy green papers or kicho papers, or even honami origamis, on YJP! These are used to cook-up frauds. 

 

I mean sure, go ahead and record the name of the person who submitted it and the year it went in, but that's all that needs to be recorded. 

 

These papers are radioactive now, and while it's taking time for everyone to adjust, that's the reality. Whatever is left floating around with a green paper should be considered dubious at best and fraudulent at worst. 

[Rich S]

WOW!  Seems if there is a way to con people somebody in Nihontoland will find it.  Of course it's no different then anything people buy that's worth more then 1$. So much fraud, scams,etc. out there everywhere. We probably get 2-3 phone calls a day from scammers.  Perhaps make a photocopy  of your green paper for your records and then fry the original?

Rich

[Surfson]

I agree with Ken.  I don't throw out papers.  I have had a sword with three different attributions by three different groups.  I leave it up to the next owner to choose the preferred papers or toss the green papers.

[DoTanuki yokai]

Nbthk sells best. Papers dont  cast spells to improve quality. 

[Tom Darling]

I wouldn't at all be surprised that future regimes of experts, will invalidate them again. Life is like a box of chocolates.  Good luck. Peace.

 

 

Tom D.