Grandpa's WWII cache

[mtexter]

Hi everyone, 

 

I figured it's time to show the community what has been sitting boxed up for 70+ years.  The pics I have are poorly organized, and I forgot to take pictures of the actual blades, but there is certainly some interesting detail captured.  Next time I'm near the collection I'll try to take the more of style of pictures I've become accustomed to seeing with nihonto.  For now, have a look, and if you happen to know anything specific or interesting about anything you see, I'd be grateful to know!

 

https://imgur.com/a/zSkLM62

[Bruce Pennington]

That's cool Mike!

 

If you don't get a quick translation of the smith names, take them over to the Translation Assistance forum and they're pretty fast with replies

here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/15-translation-assistance/

 

Your Type 97 kaigunto (navy officer sword) looks like it was made late in the war, likely 1945, by the saya (scabbard).  They originally had a leather cover over the black painted wood.  Largest Seki stamp I've ever seen!

 

I hope you don't mind, but I'm posting some of the pictures for posterity.  Over the years, some of the imgur links disappear.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

And your civilian blade.  Is it short?  Can you give us a shot of the whole blade and a length?

[SteveM]

Navy officer sword is 

後藤廣正

Gotō Hiromasa

 

Other sword is old. Looks to be centuries old (and possibly repurposed for the war). 

備州長船囗囗

Bishū Osafune ??

 

Bishū is the name of a province in old Japan, corresponding roughly with present-day Okayama prefecture. Osafune is the name of a famous sword-producing region in Bishū province. The two names (Bishū Osafune) are often found together on swords. Many well-regarded smiths come from this region. Some more close-ups of that area of the tang might help us make out the actual name of the smith. Pictures of the whole sword would probably tell us more. Forgeries are common, so there is no guarantee the name on your sword is genuine, however it does look like an old tang and old signature. 

[mtexter]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

And your civilian blade.  Is it short?  Can you give us a shot of the whole blade and a length?

 

This one is quite short, from memory maybe 12-14 inches from end to end.  No koshirae or shirasaya, just the gold/yellow fuchi you see in the picture and the copper(?) habaki.  No hamon that I recall, but then again I didn't know what that was last time I saw it.  Unfortunately this may be the worst condition of any blade in the collection, so if it's the oldest / most interesting, shame on us 😕  I'll get more shots of it next time I'm in front of it.

If memory serves (we were last together over the July 4th holiday and all had a look at the collection), there were a total of 5 blades in the collection.  I was so excited (and clueless) at the time that I didn't get proper pictures of all of them.  Next time I visit I'll make it a point to be much more thorough.  I've also done quite a bit of reading on how to properly handle and care for these sorts of things, so I'll educate my family on the subject to the extent that I can.

 

I've learned so much over the last month of research, and I'm extremely grateful to all the resources available on this forum.  Thank you all!

[Ray Singer]

The tanto is signed Sukesada.

備州長船祐定

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Ray and Steve for the translations!

[Babu]

Perhaps then your story of grandfather taking the sword from a fatally wounded Japanese warrior related to the gunto sword ,not the civilian sword.

[mtexter]

Adam that's not a story I am aware of, you must be mistaking mine for someone else's

[Babu]

Ah apologies then.

[mtexter]

Piecing some information together on the tanto, the nakago appears to be suriage, signed 備州長船祐定  (Bishu Osafune Sukesada.) I'll see if I can verify this in person.  The fuchi is Yoshinaga, and thanks to Ray I now have more pieces by the same artist with a similar motif - https://www.aoijapan.net/fuchi-kashira-the-signature-is-yoshinaga/.  This is very cool.  If only we had the kashira to match...

 

In just under a week I'll be back in front of these blades and armed with MUCH more knowledge than I had before.  I'll probably take about 50 pictures of each item, and will upload many of them here.  Check back in a week if you're interested!

[Bugyotsuji]

Mike, be aware that there was a whole line of Sukesada smiths over several hundred years. Five or six were famous, but the other 35 individuals are almost unknown.

[mtexter]

I've finished sorting the collection and matching the various bits and pieces where possible.  Here's what we've got!  Turns out there are just 3 complete nihonto (plus the one my cousin already got), plus a gunto that's just missing a tsuka.  After inspecting the blades, all were *just* beginning to develop some rust spots.  They were all stored in some kind of thick, clear/yellowish grease, but I couldn't identify it.  Seems to have kept the blades in fairly good shape for the past 75 years though.  I've got most of that wiped away and they've now been oiled properly.  

 

 

Which ones should would everyone like to see first?  We already have some good info on the (incomplete) tanto at the bottom of the picture (thanks to Ray.) , but I'll share more pics of that one soon.  Just trying to rub off some of the rust spots on that blade with a cloth and thumbnail, but progress is slow.

 

I may end up taking the collection home with me until Christmas, so opportunities abound to appreciate these.  

Edited August 31, 2020 by mtexter
Math

[Bruce Pennington]

Can you show us the nakago, close-up of the NCO Type 95, and the serial number on the blade?  It should have a small inspector stamp along side the number, too.

 

Is is coincidence that the 95 is missing a tsuka, and there is a lone tsuka, though officer, in his collection?  Most likely grabbed from a pile to go on the bare blade, but I wonder if the mekugi holes line up when you put the tsuka on the 95?

 

Did I miss the story of your grandfather?  Was he in the war and did be personally bring these back?

[dwmc]

I'm also interested in hearing how a crate/box of wwll  Japanese Bringbacks remains sealed for 75 years. That has to be an incredible story within itself.

Looking forward to more pictures and further information!

 

Dave M.

[mtexter]

I may have sprinkled small stories about my grandpa across other threads, but haven't here yet.  He was part of the American occupation of Japan in 1945-46, and to make a long story short, he saw a bunch of these nice looking swords, guns, artifacts, etc. getting thrown into a fire, so he picked up as many as he could carry and brought them back home.  Fast forward 75 years and he's now passed away, and here I am learning about Nihonto  it wasn't exactly sealed for all of those years, but my dad rarely got them out, and as a family, not one of us knew about the potential significance of the contents.  

Bruce, I will get close ups of your requests on Tuesday.  Regarding the type 95, the tsukas in our possession and mekugi ana do not align As far as I understand it, that officer tsuka was "attached" to the 95, but probably by grease or rust or something. 

 

Part of me weeps for my grandpa not knowing/being able to appreciate what he had all these years, but at least he and my dad took relatively good care of them.  

[Bruce Pennington]

Mike,

After getting home and looking at the "95" on my computer, I can see that the blade, and tsuba, are likely officer not NCO but stuck into an NCO saya.  But pictures will tell us.  Can't wait!

[mtexter]

[mtexter]

No notable markings on either side of the 95 nakago that I could see, but there's your serial number and stamp, as requested. 

I have taken a LOT more pics, but can only upload 2 at a time here because of the size limitations.  I'll upload them to imgur, one album per blade.  I should have links to all soon.  I'll move the non-military blades off of this post and into their own new homes so we can discuss them individually  

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, mtexter said:

there's your serial number and stamp

Mike,

Thanks for the photos!  Could I get one more of the tsuba (hand-guard) laying by itself?

 

So, the blade IS a late-war Type 95 NCO blade, made by Seki shops for the Nagoya Army Arsenal.  The saya is correct and likely original to the blade.  The end of the nakago (tang) has been cut off, and the original handle (tsuka) should be wooden.  I have one just 2,000 numbers earlier than yours (211894 Seki) and I'm posting pics of the tsuka and nakago for comparison.  It's possible yours took some battle damage and the repair team cut the end off.  Many of these war trophies came home missing parts.  If the tsuba (hand-guard) is correct, then all you're missing is the tsuka.

[mtexter]

And here we are.  Tomorrow i'll get them all organized into imgur albums for all to see, lots more detail should be visible there

[mtexter]

well right away it's obvious that our tsuba is different from your tsuba.  i.e. not original to this blade, I assume.  It does fit perfectly with the 2 seppa that were with it, but maybe that's coincidental. 

 

man I'm up way too late on a school night.  oh wait I'm on vacation 😄

[Bruce Pennington]

On 8/30/2020 at 10:33 PM, mtexter said:

As far as I understand it, that officer tsuka was "attached" to the 95, but probably by grease or rust or something.

That's what I thought.  With mixed items like this there are usually 3 choices: 1. All original, 2. G.I. has a gunto with missing parts, scrounges the sword piles to find stuff to fit, and 3. Post-war piece-together.  Since you know the full story of this one, Choice 3 is out, leaving the first two.  The most obvious choice is #2 - he picked up the gunto, missing parts, and scrounged around to find some that fit.

 

The small black seppa is correct for a late-war Type 95, so we only have the tsuba and tsuka to wonder about.  I haven't seen a habaki.  Is there one, or is it missing?  If it's missing, it could explain why the mekugi ana don't line up.

 

I'm plagued by the shortened nakago, though.  There was a program early in the war for officers to buy Type 95 (or rent) gunto because of shortages.  What little we know of the program, though, makes is seem to be during the early years.  I haven't heard of it lasting into the end of the war, but that doesn't mean it wasn't still being done.  This, to me, has the appearance of a blade that was intentionally shortened to take the officer tsuka (and Oh, BTW, it's got an officer tsuka on it!).  Another purely speculative idea is that an NCO, just graduating from officer candidate school, had his 95 modified for the officer handle.  But I'm WAY into pure speculation.

 

All we know, in fact, is you have a late-war Type 95 with a modified nakago and an officer tsuba and tsuka!  And you know some Bubba didn't do this to the sword post-war.

[Kiipu]

19 hours ago, mtexter said:

No notable markings on either side of the 95 nakago that I could see, but there's your serial number and stamp, as requested.

 

Nothing wrong with the lack of markings on the nakago.  The blade is coming from a Seki made Type 95 Military Sword, serial number 関213182.  The handle should be made of wood and the handle fittings of iron as Bruce indicated in post #20.  If possible, can you post a picture of the scabbard mouth opening (鯉口 koiguchi)?  There could be some markings in that location.

[mtexter]

Thomas, I will check shortly!  I didn't even think to look / photograph there.  Album to all pics coming soon, but I'll post the koiguchi first on its own here.

[mtexter]

9 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I haven't seen a habaki.  Is there one, or is it missing?

There is indeed a habaki, seems to fit perfectly so I have every reason to think it's original to the blade.  Pics soon

[mtexter]

It's a match!  213182 on both koiguchi and blade

[mtexter]

Here's a link to the rest of the pictures on the Type 95, for anyone wanting to see more details:  https://imgur.com/a/N7EkjFo

[Rivkin]

Hi Mike,

 

Some of these items look interesting. If you want an advice, could you please make 1 topic per sword, preferrably in something like nihonto branch and put there photographs of fittings+blade - entire blade, nakago, boshi and the most visible portion of hamon-hada. 

Its quite some work, but some of the pieces are interesting and you will likely get a rather detailed assesment on those. Some decent fittings, tanto which can be late Muromachi sue-seki, late Muromachi Bizen Sukesada...

 

Kirill R.

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, mtexter said:

the rest of the pictures

OK, after seeing the rest of the pictures, it is clear that Tsuka was never fitted for that blade.

 

Matching numbers on the saya, so that’s good!