Babu Posted August 3, 2020 Report Posted August 3, 2020 Just a little warning not to get caught out on trades even if the person trading claims to be high up in the Irish Token society or similar group of enthusiast's. I recently got sent pictures of a few items as a trade on something I listed on here and based on those images decided subject to in hand it might stack up. However when the trade goods arrived they were in very poor condition a tanto Koshirae split and damaged beyond what was seen in images,held together with not a Tsunagi, but two chopsticks from Wagamama and a pair of worn out menuki of low grade. I wrote an email immediately, but my PC died and I thought oh well lets wait until they confirm receipt of my lovely katana Koshirae with dragons and tigers. The Koshirae I found out today had arrived, so I told the other person I was not happy with the quality or condition of his goods. I would rather cancel the trade please. His reply was "Sorry Adam, a deal is a deal” I would have thought anyone of honour would offer an inspection period. I know I do of three days. So remember, not all are bad, but some people you think are honourable and upright members of the Nihonto community, will sometimes shaft you if they can and without remorse. 1 1
mtexter Posted August 3, 2020 Report Posted August 3, 2020 Yikes. Thanks for the caution, sorry that happened.
kyushukairu Posted August 4, 2020 Report Posted August 4, 2020 I would like to take the opportunity to clear up a few details, and present an accurate account of the situation. I first encountered Adam when he had listed some tosogu on ebay, which included a nice set of fuchigashira. I had intended to bid on them, but noticed that the listing had been cancelled. I then contacted the seller (Adam) with the hope of purchasing the fuchigashira directly. Adam told me that the fuchigashira cost him £400, but he didn't know what they were worth. He then said that he would prefer a trade, and so I proceeded to send him pictures of fittings which I intended to part with. Adam continually emphasised the quality of his items and downplayed everything I offered. This included a set of 24k gold menuki, which he assured me were gold plated and not of any great quality or value. This was also the first occasion when I sent Adam pictures of the tanto koshirae in question. When he asked me what I valued the koshirae at, I told him £350 based on the fittings, which were all shakudo (£150 for the fuchigashira, £150 for the menuki, and £50 for the kojiri). I also told him that there was no tsunagi, and that the tsuka and saya were pretty much free with the fittings. After correspondence over dozens of emails, Adam then decided that he no longer wanted to trade for any of my items, and told me that the fuchigashira meant too much to him and that he did not wish to part with them. A week or so later, I listed items for sale on NMB, Adam then contacted me with interest in several items, offering me less than half of the listed value. We then discussed a trade for one of his items which he had listed on NMB (a Nara school kozuka). Again we were unable to arrive at a deal, as Adam changed his mind on the trade, downplaying the quality of my items and emphasising the quality of his. A few days later he then messaged me to offer the fuchigashira, which I had initially seen on ebay, for £550, as he needed the cash for something else. In passing, I mentioned that I liked the katana koshirae which he posted on NMB and he suggested a partial trade with cash. After some negotiation, Adam referred back to the tanto koshirae which I had previously shown him, asked me to send the photos again, and said that he would take the tanto koshirae, a set of ‘cheap menuki’, and £300. Agreeing to the terms, we both decided to send the items by next day delivery. I had taken the tanto koshirae to the post office and sent them next day delivery as agreed (they arrived on the next day - Thursday 30th August). However, due to the size of the package, Adam informed me that the koshirae could not be sent next day but was instead sent by parcel force at the cost of £38, and which I did not receive until Saturday 1st August. I received no word from Adam until Monday 4th of August, five days after he had received my package, asking if I had received the koshirae. Adam then voiced his dissatisfaction with the koshirae, and asked me to send him another set of menuki to 'fix this deal'. When I said, 'Sorry, Adam. A deal is a deal' he then said that there should be a 'one or two day inspection period'. I then pointed out it has been 5 days since he received the items and this is the first I have heard from him. In response, Adam then claimed to have emailed me on the day he received them, which was not the case. He then sent me a message which he had supposedly written on the day, but not sent, and threatened me with legal proceedings. Adam had already wasted enough of my time with the suggestion of trades, offering to sell items and changing the prices, and retracting items from sale. Dating from the 18th July, my email correspondence with Adam exceeds 125 emails, and so this was not a deal which was done in a matter of minutes, Adam had plenty of time to ask further questions and for extra images. The pictures were also taken with my iphone and quite clearly represent the condition of the koshirae which he was receiving. In normal circumstances, I would have happily returned the item in return for my own items and cash, but the erratic and threatening messages which I received, not to mention the potential of being out of pocket for returning the koshirae, led me to desire no further engagement with Adam and refusal to further entertain him. Also, I never personally mentioned that I was in the Irish Token Society, that information was taken from my NMB profile. In an email, Adam said ‘I see that you are part of the Irish Token Society, I am in the Great British Token Society’. After making some enquiries I have also learned that Adam is a new member of the GB Token, and after being declined membership for his 6 year old son, on the grounds of health and safety, harassed the committee members. I have also learned that Adam has had run-ins with a well-regarded restorer in the UK, who he refused to pay for their services. Adam made unreasonable demands, such as changing the fuchigashira after the tsuka had already been wrapped, and demanded that the restorer wrap a tanto tsuka in 3 days for his son's 7th birthday (who would give a tanto to a 7 year old?). I think these actions speak volumes about the sort of person Adam is, and I strongly advise other members to avoid any engagement with him. It's not worth the stress. Ps. the chopsticks were from a convenience store in Tokyo
Brian Posted August 4, 2020 Report Posted August 4, 2020 Deal comments come with right of reply. We are not here to judge. People can make up their own minds so let’s avoid comments on who was right or wrong. Once both sides have had their say, I’ll lock this.
Babu Posted August 4, 2020 Author Report Posted August 4, 2020 Brian, I truly cannot be bothered to respond to that huge pile of steaming crap. It's so far from the truth... I honestly just cannot be bothered. Enjoy your new koshirae Kyle Shuttleworth PhD... person I had the decency not to name but you named yourself . On a personal note just because you say something it doesn't automatically make true. My son, for the last time, has tanto and wakizashi this is very true........ with wooden blades they are called tsunagi and I make them for him myself. I would not give my seven year old a real blade you judgemental prink. The lesson is there should anyone wish to learn from my mistakes. I don't expect many people to be as machiavellian as this guy clearly is. MODS please close this.
kyushukairu Posted August 4, 2020 Report Posted August 4, 2020 You created an issue which had to be addressed when you named the Token Society of Ireland. People who read your post contacted members to enquire about the situation, and I'm quite happy to name myself as I've nothing to hide. If it's all far from the truth, feel free to point out any inconsistencies. I have email correspondence from you to support everything I have written. In terms of your preceding reputation, I'm sure other members of the UK nihonto community will also weigh in to confirm what I have said.
Babu Posted August 4, 2020 Author Report Posted August 4, 2020 Please no more. After a while Kyle you will even start to believe your own crap. Why in earth would you even try to convince me this utter tripe in any way is a true and accurate record of anything. You forget I know what's true and what's your imagination. You might fool the general reader but not me. It was you who didn't have the funds and wanted a trade heavy deal. Bigger fool me for agreeing, but then I thought it a gentleman's agreement. Not an opportunity for you to rip me off. GDPR You should not have that level of detail into a private discussion between myself and the Token Society of GB albeit that you have twisted it to suit your own needs. I'm asking for this to be investigated. You cannot possibly judge what went down between "a well known restorer" and I, you were not privy to any of it. You frankly do not have a clue. Do you with your PhD understand what slander in a public forum is? I really recommend that you show what you have written to your solicitors because a storms coming. You don't lie and slander me in public. Remember I only have to prove one of your statements is a lie to win the case. Lets see how your bull stands up in a court of law. I've got the money and hell I think you would deserve it. For the record My mention of the Irish Token society was merely a name grabbed from the air. I could have said any other professional body hence the statement "claims to be high up in the Irish Token society or similar group of enthusiast's" It in no way implicates that society or indeed any other in any way shape or form. Now mods please close this before Kyle makes another defamous and false statement that gets him into legal trouble.
kyushukairu Posted August 4, 2020 Report Posted August 4, 2020 I'm beginning to wonder whether you have a firm grasp of reality, Adam... Regarding the trade, you stated "The reason for any of this is I have other things to buy and am looking to liberate items that would allow for this." And as I responded, "I like the koshirae, but I don't need it. If we could do a deal that would be trade heavy, I'd be happy to pay a bit of cash towards it. Otherwise, I'm happy to leave it. If you can sell it to someone else for the full asking price, and you need the cash, you should go for that". I thought I was doing you a favour by giving you some money. Regarding your experience with a well known restorer, you posted it on the forum yourself. I raised this and the example with the GB Token society to illustrate that my experience with you is not an isolated event. The UK nihonto community is a close-knit group who warn each other about about troublesome individuals, and if you continue threatening people with legal proceedings, no one is going to want to deal with you.
PNSSHOGUN Posted August 5, 2020 Report Posted August 5, 2020 It appears there is a reoccuring factor in these problematic transactions you seem to be constantly having, Adam........
IJASWORDS Posted August 5, 2020 Report Posted August 5, 2020 Not picking sides, but I learn from these discussions. I don't use auction sites, unless there is guarantees, and restrict my purchases to people I trust, and preferably look at the goods in the hand. 3
Babu Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Posted August 5, 2020 6 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said: It appears there is a reoccuring factor in these problematic transactions you seem to be constantly having, Adam........ Absolutely. I get a very poor job done on a wrap its my fault. Pretty much everyone agreed it was a bad wrap. I agree to a trade heavy deal as suggested by another and I'm stuck with the junk while the other party walks away with a big grin because he's come off far better. He then decides to quote some truths mixed with fabrication, dig into private conversations with professional bodies and directly attack me on a public forum in the hope of discrediting me regardless of the fact that I had the decency to not name or shame anyone, my post was totally generic. My fault again. Tsukamaki : My order was also for fancy gold shitodome which he makes, not black second hand dented shitodome. But as they were free why am I complaining right? The restorer did two ito before this but he never contacted me or asked what style so when I did contact him he had already done one and started the other. It was only at this point I realised his default style is Tsumami not Hineri as almost all tsuka are. I said I need the second tsuka the same as the katana and sent a picture in hineri. He said he'd have to start again and I agreed to pay him to do so. I said if your OK can I send out a different fuchi kashira. He agreed and It arrived the next morning. He did the second in the style I wanted I was very happy with the photos he sent and paid him. I sent the 2.5" tsuka to him. The brief was to wrap it fit menuki supplied and fuchi kashira. Make fancy gold shitodome (he does nice ones) tell me what it cost and I'll pay. I got back the badly wrapped tsuka in the wrong style with second hand slightly dented black shitodome. Why on earth should I accept a completely different job to the one commissioned. I did not refuse to pay him I sent an enail asking for it to be redone which to date has been ignored. It seems the suggestion is that we just take it on the chin when people ignore instructions. Or if people see they have a cracking deal and refuse to return an item even when the other party said they would refund all postage costs and pay return delivery fir their items back. So Kyle stated above. " In normal circumstances, I would have happily returned the item in return for my own items and cash, but the erratic and threatening messages which I received, not to mention the potential of being out of pocket for returning the koshirae, led me to desire no further engagement with Adam and refusal to further entertain him." More lies as this email was sent right before he refused to return it. " I'm going to refund your £300 plus £12.50 for the postage by Parcel force 48. I'll send your items back by special delivery tomorrow. Please put my Koshirae back in the box it came in safely to protect against damage and send it back to me. Let's put this down to experience and I doubt we will go down this road again." His reply to this email, as you already know was " Sorry Adam, a deal is a deal" Furthermore I can see no threats in my emails at all or any erratic emails ive just gone over the entire chain which is 14 emails in relation to the deal not the collection over weeks and weeks. I clearly wanted my koshirae back and was being as calm as possible. I did offer a compromise agreed, but this was ignored. So already two lies. I did not ask to trade as he stated originally,it was he wanted a "trade heavy deal" He was never going to return my koshirae he used fabricated threatening emails and "being out of pocket for return postage " to justify his refusing to be honourable. I've learnt a very hard lesson here.
Babu Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Posted August 5, 2020 6 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said: It appears there is a reoccuring factor in these problematic transactions you seem to be constantly having, Adam........ Neil I obviously thought I could trust Kyle he seemed genuinely interested and moderately fair in pricing . Although I appreciate his clear-out sale was not a great success, perhaps due to his pricing. Had he not liked the condition of my koshirae on receiving it, he would have requested a return. That's a fact. I would have agreed because I want people to be entirely happy. I try to treat others as I would like to be treated myself. I'm far from perfect but I would not lie and cheat or publicly try to discredit a person directly. Thats why none of you knew to whom I referred until he decided in his infinite wisdom to respond.
Shiroshinobi Posted August 5, 2020 Report Posted August 5, 2020 I am shocked at the insults being thrown here. I hope the subscribed version will not allow such people to vent off? This is not enjoyable. Why air your problems on an open forum only to play the victim when you are confronted? It seems that you are the magnet of mis-understanding. Societies, collectors and craftspeople should perhaps think very carefully before interacting with you. 2
Babu Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Posted August 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Shiroshinobi said: I am shocked at the insults being thrown here. I hope the subscribed version will not allow such people to vent off? This is not enjoyable. Why air your problems on an open forum only to play the victim when you are confronted? It seems that you are the magnet of mis-understanding. Societies, collectors and craftspeople should perhaps think very carefully before interacting with you. From what I understand no one is forcing you to read any of this. Lets put the point back again. So Kyle stated above. " In normal circumstances, I would have happily returned the item in return for my own items and cash, but the erratic and threatening messages which I received, not to mention the potential of being out of pocket for returning the koshirae, led me to desire no further engagement with Adam and refusal to further entertain him." More lies as this email was sent right before he refused to return it. Email 3rd August 13.21 Kyle did you get the Koshirae? I don't mind if you want to cancel this trade. Hello Adam, Yes, I received the koshirae and I'm quite pleased with it. Ok thanks. Regretfully I'm not so. I think the tanto Koshirae is pretty badly damaged and not worth £350 in it's condition maybe £200 if your lucky. I've bought a lot better for less, no offense. I just don't know how to best proceed. What do you think? Kyle : I'm sorry to hear you're not happy. However, as I told you the first time I showed it to you, I based the price on the fittings (the tsuka and saya are just a bonus): £150 for the fuchigashira, £150 for the menuki, and £50 for the kojiri, which may even have undervalued them. I have personally never seen shakudo fittings of a similar size and quality sell for less than that on NMB. If you have previously bought something similar for less, then you have been very lucky Me: Of course and yet as we all know in any trade based on images we should allow the recipient on both sides a day or two to inspect the goods to confirm they are happy. I think the deal so heavy in your favour I'd be happy to cancel . What do you think? I'm trying not to create a difficult situation Kyle I just think as usual I'm getting the bad end of the deal. Happens all the time. Kyle how about we compromise. The menuki are not in the condition I would use them so a waste. How about we change them for a better set and we will call it evens? Kyle: No reply. Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:51 PM Adam " I'm going to refund your £300 plus £12.50 for the postage by Parcel force 48. I'll send your items back by special delivery tomorrow. Please put my Koshirae back in the box it came in safely to protect against damage and send it back to me. Let's put this down to experience and I doubt we will go down this road again." Mon, 3 Aug 2020, 17:53 Kyle " Sorry Adam, a deal is a deal" Aug 3, 2020 at 6:00 PM Adam Doesn't work that way. Inspection period is a must. You have sent a load of items that look way better in the low Res images. Had my Koshirae not been to your liking you would be doing exactly the same thing. I'll have my goods back please. The rest is all nitty gritty between us. I would like to add that clearly the statement regarding any potential return and being "out of pocket" was a load of rubbish. Also there were no threatening emails to the point of his refusal to return my items or afterwards. Kyle knew he had the better of this transaction and had NO intention whatsoever of considering any return. He was keeping my koshirae whatever happened. Kyle, So ill throw down the gauntlet for you as say this. If you can evidence that prior to Mon, 3 Aug 2020, 17:53 I was in any way threatening in my emails to you with regards to this transaction, or that I did not offer to cover all return postage for both parties, then I will make a formal apology on this forum and you can keep the koshirae. If you cannot then kindly do what you claim you would have done and return my koshirae to me immediately with no more fabrication on your part. Regards Adam
Ontario_Archaeology Posted August 5, 2020 Report Posted August 5, 2020 I just wish the original pictures of the sale and the pictures of what appears to be mis represented were posted
kyushukairu Posted August 5, 2020 Report Posted August 5, 2020 "Kyle, So ill throw down the gauntlet for you as say this. If you can evidence that prior to Mon, 3 Aug 2020, 17:53 I was in any way threatening in my emails to you with regards to this transaction, or that I did not offer to cover all return postage for both parties, then I will make a formal apology on this forum and you can keep the koshirae." Adam, I never claimed you were threatening before the transaction. In the succeeding email, however, you did threaten legal action against me. And as for your claim of offering to cover all return postage for both parties, that is clearly inaccurate. As I mentioned in my opening statement, you informed me that the postage was £38, and in your message you offered £12, which would only have covered my postal fees of sending the item to you by special delivery, and not the costs of returning the katana koshirae. I do hope you will keep to your word and make a formal apology now.
kyushukairu Posted August 5, 2020 Report Posted August 5, 2020 Valaric, I don't think it's helpful for you to cast your judgement here. As Brian stated, trades have a right of reply, and this is not the place for others to state their opinions. Regarding my reply that 'a deal is a deal' - that was written in response to Adam's attempt to try to get a better set of menuki to 'top up' the deal. We agreed to a trade of my tanto koshirae, a set of menuki (which he chose) and £300 cash in exchange for his katana koshirae which he had listed for sale. I did not wish to be hustled into providing an upgrade because he had changed his mind on a whim, nor did I wish to be out of pocket for returning his koshirae. There was no mention of an examination period, and when Adam did suggest that there should be a 'one or two day' inspection period it had already been five days since he had received the items from me. As can been seen from his responses on the forum, he is a thoroughly tiresome person, whom I no longer wished to deal with. 1
Babu Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Posted August 5, 2020 1 hour ago, kyushukairu said: "Kyle, So ill throw down the gauntlet for you as say this. If you can evidence that prior to Mon, 3 Aug 2020, 17:53 I was in any way threatening in my emails to you with regards to this transaction, or that I did not offer to cover all return postage for both parties, then I will make a formal apology on this forum and you can keep the koshirae." Adam, I never claimed you were threatening before the transaction. In the succeeding email, however, you did threaten legal action against me. And as for your claim of offering to cover all return postage for both parties, that is clearly inaccurate. As I mentioned in my opening statement, you informed me that the postage was £38, and in your message you offered £12, which would only have covered my postal fees of sending the item to you by special delivery, and not the costs of returning the katana koshirae. I do hope you will keep to your word and make a formal apology now. "In normal circumstances, I would have happily returned the item in return for my own items and cash, but the erratic and threatening messages which I received, not to mention the potential of being out of pocket for returning the koshirae, led me to desire no further engagement with Adam and refusal to further entertain him." THIS STATEMENT FROM YOU Cannot be any clearer to me and your reply is just another attempt to worm your way out of your statement. You cannot evidence threatening behaviour and of being out of pocket prior to your refusing to cancel the deal. I offered return postage. FACT. Your responce was to my offer of a full refund and return of your goods and postage. It was a very clear refusal FACT. The £12.50 I offered you is with £200 insurance parcelforce 48. I honestly cannot believe that you claim that you would have returned the item had I not been threatening to you and you being "out of pocket" and your still trying to fool people. YOU NEVER HAD ANY INTENTIONS OF RETURNING THE KOSHIRAE. WHY MAKE OUT YOU DID? And still you will do your utmost to keep it, even when proven to be slightly short on the truth. You make me laugh honestly you have absolutely no morals at all. VALRIC. And I also agree with you Valric I wanted nothing more than to cancel this deal I was just trying to find a compromise to redress the balance. Maybe I am difficult but lets just say if the deal stacked up, then none of this would have happened. And the deal wouldn't have happened in the first place if I had been "threatening" in any way. I agree I am more than happy to return everything, cover the return postage and refund the original £7.50 whilst losing my original postage costs. I will make sure that he is not out of pocket in any way. So Kyle what do you want to do because I think I know your answer already.
kissakai Posted August 5, 2020 Report Posted August 5, 2020 I've dealt with both parties and had happy results Someone can offer to mediate and the post in my humble opinion should be closed
Babu Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Posted August 5, 2020 I just want to return Kyle's stuff, refund him and get back my koshirae then I'll close my account on here. I'm not good at these forums and that's a fact. Both parties should be happy with a deal or the deal is null and void. I made it very clear that I was not happy. So Why the delay? 30th was my sons 7th birthday I was preoccupied all day. 31st my final consultation meeting regarding my redundancy so mentally preoccupied. Saturday completely forgot about it. Sunday had a CT scan for a diagnosis of my COPD lot going through my head as this isn't going to get better! Monday a grievence hearing regarding unfair dismissal. In hindsight I should have let him know immediately but having been burned on a non delivery claim even when a person had signed for the goods and with postal services signing on behalf of the recepient, I wanted him to confirm receipt before I raised my rejection.
Ken-Hawaii Posted August 5, 2020 Report Posted August 5, 2020 Mods, how about locking this until Brian is up & about? 1
Babu Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Posted August 5, 2020 Tried this several times Ken but no one did lock it.
Recommended Posts