parfaitelumiere Posted October 2, 2020 Report Posted October 2, 2020 the peeling off is very interesting. I remember I got two sukashi tsuba in the past, both sakura theme. one had light rust and keeping original patina almost all surface, clean, but easy to see it's not thick, very neat surface. I made similar process on steel, if made very slowly, it can almost look like shakudo, but hard to make. The other tsuba had thick flaking bluish patina, strange, not very nice finish but tsuba was interesting, I was thinking about forged iron, and the flaking maketial forming on it, but didn't think the tsuba could have been into fire. 1 Quote
Spartancrest Posted October 2, 2020 Report Posted October 2, 2020 I have posted an extract from an observation made over a hundred years ago previously about 'forgeries' As well I have with the help of Steve M. found one firm making cast iron guards called Nambu Tekki (南部鉄器) There are new copyists poping up all the time - some are truly junk whilst others would pass un-noticed if you didn't have a close look. Just check this link - https://www.jauce.com/user/touki_souma?search=tsuba - at least there are so many the same, you automatically know they are fakes. These are rather expensive replica guards - so expensive in fact you could find an original at a comparable price with a bit of looking around. https://www.jauce.com/user/sekiblade2018?search=tsuba 1 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted October 2, 2020 Author Report Posted October 2, 2020 Yes, a flock of replicas that fill this thumbnail. I always use the hide feature for a particular seller in an auction before browsing. Are these products of Nambu Tekki (南部鉄器)? I misunderstood that it was made entirely in China. Quote
Spartancrest Posted October 2, 2020 Report Posted October 2, 2020 Yas These 'Miochin/Myochin' copies are Nambu Tekki - paperweights/souvernirs. Produced in the city of Morioka in Iwate prefecture. I do believe most other copies are from China - but some of the better copies I think are still made in Japan and even in America of all places. 1 Quote
roger dundas Posted October 3, 2020 Report Posted October 3, 2020 I could well be wrong but I get the feeling that this above topic and thread is somewhat uncomfortable or disconcerting for some but is an important topic to my mind ? And Dale and Yas' knowledge on this matter is invaluable. Roger j 1 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted October 3, 2020 Author Report Posted October 3, 2020 On 10/2/2020 at 1:56 PM, Spartancrest said: Yas These 'Miochin/Myochin' copies are Nambu Tekki - paperweights/souvernirs. Produced in the city of Morioka in Iwate prefecture. I do believe most other copies are from China - but some of the better copies I think are still made in Japan and even in America of all places. Expand Thank you, Dale. I see, is this so. Speaking of Tosa Myochin, there is a tsuba that "written" the autograph with a laser. Perhaps Japanese and Chinese who can write kanji do not do such an exaggerated way. https://twitter.com/yakozen777/status/1132527017637818368 Sorry, Roger. Unfortunately, because of my not progress English proficiency, I'm not sure what you say mean. Machine translation is even more confusing to me. If my post causes any disadvantage or discomfort to the members, In addition it is regrettable. Quote
roger dundas Posted October 3, 2020 Report Posted October 3, 2020 Hello Yas, I meant no criticism of you or Dale at all and I certainly don't mean to make you feel uncomfortable . Instead I thought that the information you and Dale have presented is excellent but possibly the topic could make some of us tsuba collectors a little disturbed.......which of our collection might be thought of as junk copies ? Never the less it is an important discussion to have, I believe. So, well done Yas, well done Dale for mine. Roger j Quote
Spartancrest Posted October 3, 2020 Report Posted October 3, 2020 Yas Do you think the laser one was good before it was 'cremated'? Image is too small to see very well. It may have been worth more than it is now! 😬 I have not seen Lasered mei before - waterjet and cast in yes - all very lazy. If you intend to fake put some effort in with a chisel! 😄 Roger Thanks for the comment - I know how Yas must struggle with Google Translate - it is not so great. Have you tried looking up from the Japanese 'found in an old trunk' -Google comes back with 'found in an old Elephant' [that would explain why so many tsuba require a good clean!😷] 1 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted October 3, 2020 Author Report Posted October 3, 2020 Dale. The image was picked up online almost 15 years ago, so the file size is small and the image quality is poor. I think the foundation is a modern product like you showed the link. At that time, the online auction was really an amateur exchange market, and they was willing to buy and sell with the out of focus photos. I'm waiting for a similar item to be listed, but it's hard to come up. I'm looking forward to it. Roger. As Dale spoke for me. Please tolerate that I can only have a simple dialogue. 2 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted October 3, 2020 Author Report Posted October 3, 2020 On 10/2/2020 at 10:02 AM, parfaitelumiere said: the peeling off is very interesting. I remember I got two sukashi tsuba in the past, both sakura theme. one had light rust and keeping original patina almost all surface, clean, but easy to see it's not thick, very neat surface. I made similar process on steel, if made very slowly, it can almost look like shakudo, but hard to make. The other tsuba had thick flaking bluish patina, strange, not very nice finish but tsuba was interesting, I was thinking about forged iron, and the flaking maketial forming on it, but didn't think the tsuba could have been into fire. Expand Patrice. I must also preface your post with "I don't think I understand it fully." If I only reply to the secondary heating of the forged product, there is also far more financial damage than a fire to the tsuba. I'm just showing the image here, I won't go into detail. Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted October 31, 2020 Author Report Posted October 31, 2020 For Oct. The staple products. (The quality is getting worse and worse.) https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b508770410 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/x708817664 The deformed expressions and polka dots of the rock (or pine) resemble Goto School. However, when the replica is repeated, the design of "黄初平 Kousyohei" becomes unknown. https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/d455895618 This is also the same, it's close but not the same. reference sample Choshu Hagi ju Sakunoshin TOMOHISA"Fukiyose" sukashi http://ginza.choshuya.co.jp/fs/sale/kodogu/3301_3350/3306/k3306.htm# https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n462396382 reference sample no sign Sado "two leaves of reed" sukashi http://ginza.choshuya.co.jp/fs/sale/kodogu/3101_3150/3111/k3111.htm https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/o374059961 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f462328918 reference sample no sign Yagyu school a single bamboo stalk in openwork ColBase（https://colbase.nich.go.jp/collection_items/tnm/F-19915?locale=en) https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/c859976258 4 Quote
Spartancrest Posted November 5, 2020 Report Posted November 5, 2020 Good work Yas. The reed leaves are very common, I have seen a few that are cracked or broken because they are cast iron. I personally like the design because they look like eucalyptus leaves (Australian gumtree leaves)🦘 1 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted November 5, 2020 Author Report Posted November 5, 2020 Yes, it looks like a eucalyptus leaf. The two long leaves "芦葉 ashi-ba" are said to be the vessel when Daruma-daishi crossed the Yangtze River. 芦葉達磨図鐔 土屋國保 (Ashiba-daruma-zu tsuba Tuchiya-kuniyasu) https://blog.goo.ne.jp/tsuba_001/e/c67d2d029ca71af62e8e4719adf8e395 芦葉達磨図小柄 銘 徳乗作 光美（花押） (Ashiba-daruma-zu koduka (Goto)tokujyo-saku kobi(kao)) http://aoyamafudo.co.jp/product/427/ 1 Quote
Curran Posted November 6, 2020 Report Posted November 6, 2020 That is a very nice Tokujo kozuka. I regret not buying the Tokujo tsuba sold by Tsuruginoya at the DTI ago. If I ever see it again, I will grab for it a bit faster. If you see any other nice Tokujo works, please PM me. I would appreciate it very much. Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted November 6, 2020 Author Report Posted November 6, 2020 On 11/6/2020 at 2:10 AM, Curran said: I regret not buying the Tokujo tsuba sold by Tsuruginoya at the DTI ago. If I ever see it again, I will grab for it a bit faster. Expand Gotou Tokujo (1550-1631) signed his work only in "Shojomai-zu mitutokoro". The famous "Battle of Yashima Tsuba" is also identified as Tokujo because of no sign, and is also called the 6th Eijo. Even if it was appraised by the descendants of the Goto family, it is surprising that the tsuba made by Tokujo was on sale. I wanted to see an item that rarely meet too. 屋島合戦図鍔 後藤徳乗 Tokujo-Goto https://blog.goo.ne.jp/tsuba_001/e/fe6d71c9ce5028d08ff2bf96211fa428 Quote
Curran Posted November 7, 2020 Report Posted November 7, 2020 On 11/6/2020 at 6:22 AM, Yasaka Azuma said: Gotou Tokujo (1550-1631) signed his work only in "Shojomai-zu mitutokoro". The famous "Battle of Yashima Tsuba" is also identified as Tokujo because of no sign, and is also called the 6th Eijo. Even if it was appraised by the descendants of the Goto family, it is surprising that the tsuba made by Tokujo was on sale. I wanted to see an item that rarely meet too. Expand Azuma-san, Ha! I did not know this tsuba was for sale. I am surprised by this. It is very fine workmanship. Very confident. To me, it feels more like Eijo workmanship- but my opinion is not an expert opinion. The Tokujo tsuba for sale was the paulownia crest one. The paulownia crest tsuba is smaller than this famous Battle of Yashima tsuba. To my eyes, the paulownia crest tsuba seems a prototype or an O-tanto tsuba. Maybe wakizashi sized? The feeling is more "O-tanto". I regret not buying it, but my income varies greatly from year to year. That year, by the time of the DTI, I probably had an "empty wallet". This year is 🙄.... but I really like Tokujo's life story and his artwork. I am curious to see one of his battlefield map drawings. Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted November 7, 2020 Author Report Posted November 7, 2020 Curran-san, I found. This is it. 桐紋図鍔 無銘 後藤徳乗 Kirimon-zu Tsuba [Goto Tokujyo 5th] https://www.tsuruginoya.com/items/f00244.html I can find other works called Tsuba of Goto Tokujyo. I can't say anything about that because I don't have enough knowledge me too. It is generally said that among Japanese kinko enthusiasts, the one signed by the legitimate head of the Goto family with kiwame is exceptional compared to the unsigned work judged by modern appraisers to be Tokujyo. 桐紋図鍔 無銘 後藤徳乗 https://blog.goo.ne.jp/tsuba_001/e/4cba73b60878c2993cbaff2dffb0e702 1 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted November 7, 2020 Author Report Posted November 7, 2020 The two kinkos look the same. Resale often succeeds or fails with fraudulent bidding. https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n461647339 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/h511410568 There was an merchandise with lessons learned, so I would like to introduce it. The Kogai seller wrote in the item description: "Since each grain of Nanaco of authenticity is driven in, there is a slight deviation, and even if the columns are aligned, the rows are unlikely to be exactly aligned. If you see it in a straight line when viewed from an angle, Nanako is a mass-produced product cast from a mold (both crest and base)." https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/l631095092 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/v750248387 2 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted November 29, 2020 Author Report Posted November 29, 2020 For Nov. The staple products. https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/h511806030 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/h493681754 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/v757678266 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/c863348652 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/v740702277 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k511096111 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/u377474103 From the end of the Edo period to the Meiji and Taisho eras, many painters painted "Jigoku Dayu". But there is no craftsman on Encyclopedia called "Jhomei-ken Suzuki-maromitsu". https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/515007587 The twelve zodiac signs are universal symbols that represent the time, direction, moon, season, etc. that began in ancient China. It is suspicious why the north, south, east and west of the Kyo sukashi tsuba on the right side match, and the Akasaka tsuba on the left side is turned inside out. https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f467674175 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/g235317763 The point inlay is in the same position on the obverse and reverse. It is certain that the brass pillar that penetrate on both sides will never fall off. https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/s781874053 It is explained that it is the signature of "打越弘寿 Uchikoshi Hironaga" of Mito Kinko School. However, the character "弘" cannot be read correctly, it is write "為". https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/r442000800 1 Quote
Spartancrest Posted November 30, 2020 Report Posted November 30, 2020 Yas, I did a two page spread in my beginners book about the 'Geisha & Demon" fakes, there are so many versions it is difficult to keep track of them. Good Meiji 'reproductions' have themselves been copied - getting worse and worse over time. I believe somewhere out there is an original and I also believe it may have a roped edge fukurin - but I have so far not found it. There are other guards just like this example, some have been discussed before. 2 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted November 30, 2020 Author Report Posted November 30, 2020 Oh, I didn't know that ... "Jigoku Dayu (hell-prostitute)" is a story set in the Muromachi period. After Gyosai Cawanabe (1831-1889) drew it on Ukiyo-e, Jigoku-Tayu's motif became popular for some reason. Since the samurai era was already over, it was exported as souvenir, and this kind may remain more in foreign countries. Quote
b.hennick Posted November 30, 2020 Report Posted November 30, 2020 I'm impressed with this work. I think that I would buy some of these and talk into these traps. I will have to look more carefully. 1 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted November 30, 2020 Author Report Posted November 30, 2020 Collecting Japanese sword fittings is fun, but this is where things are currently. The name of the thread I titled Merry friends is paradoxical, as you can see from the previous content. Quote
Bazza Posted November 30, 2020 Report Posted November 30, 2020 Yas san, very interesting and informative work, thank you, but it's enough to make an "ordinary" collector hit the bottle ... BaZZa. 2 1 Quote
Spartancrest Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 Bazza - so you are what an ordinary collector looks like! [Its not an exclusive club I hope- can I join?]🤓 3 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Posted December 1, 2020 Not surprisingly, as most buyers know, it's not a "fully disinfected" market. There are some products whose authenticity cannot be judged from the image. I do not deny the decision to buy it and check it with the real thing, depending on the auction price. Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Posted December 1, 2020 On 12/1/2020 at 4:37 AM, Yasaka Azuma said: There are some products whose authenticity cannot be judged from the image. I do not deny the decision to buy it and check it with the real thing, depending on the auction price. Expand I also dared to make a successful bid for them, and as a result I licked bittern. It's like that! https://twitter.com/yakozen777/status/1157452871761190912 Quote
Bazza Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 Dale wrote "Bazza - so you are what an ordinary collector looks like! [Its not an exclusive club I hope- can I join?]" 😇 Dale, self-appointees are always welcome!! I remember when I started 55 years ago my first book was John Yumoto's little primer. In it he wrote "Study never ends". How true I've found that to be over the years. I'm mainly a blade-man with just a slight detour into the world of tosogu, but without study Yas san has shown how much it can be a pit with sharp stakes at the bottom!!! Having said that I do have some "heavy" books on tosogu without seriously putting my toe in the water to collect. As Bert said in the song "Oi loiks wot I do and I do wot oi loiks" without worrying too much about authenticity - blades are another matter. So, how very glad I am that Yas san shares his knowledge here. To add some "juice" I've attached images of an Akasaka Tadatoki V tsuba. The description given when I bought it was: I believe this particular tsuba was made by Tadatoki V (8th master of the Akasaka school). He became head of the family in 1818. This tsuba has a near faultless surface and demonstrates the artist’s ability to create a dynamic composition in an extremely limited space. There is a imperfection on the ura side of this tsuba (near the signature). This looks like silver inlay, however I'm not sure how or why it is there. Overall it doesn't detract from the tsuba ... That little silver "blob" next to the -TOKI is curious. The tsuba doesn't have a paper, bit oi loiks it. It appealed to me the first time I saw it in a friend's collection and jumped on it when it was offered. I've just realised this is a "friends-of-y-auction" page and hope i haven't committed trespass... It wouldn't be the first time I have lost the plot. BaZZa. 4 Quote
Yasaka Azuma Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Posted December 1, 2020 It is difficult to distinguish akasaka-tadatoki (8 generations). Some have a unique tagane and some do not, and some are influenced by Higo and cannot be distinguished. It is one of the items that is difficult to judge the image because the side observation is the decisive factor when the jigane is glossy or watermarked. I have decided that the online sale in the image below is a no good. 1 Quote
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