Stamp Survey

[IJASWORDS]

Another Nagamitsu. At least the assembly number does not match the mune number 3978. 

[Bruce Pennington]

But does it have a Saka stamp?

 

interesting though, the kanji appears (blurry) to be the square,

[Ooitame]

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

If these are serial numbers, then they start at 1 and will go to three, four, or five digits.  It looks like four digits in this case.  After finishing the initial range of numbers starting with 1, they would start using a katakana prefix that follows the iroha poem order.  In the West, we call these prefixes series marks.

1 to XXXX

イ1 to イXXXX

ロ1 to ロXXXX

 

Something similar happened with Mantetsu swords except they did not use the no prefix series that started at 1.

So if I understand, it is either 1393 or 10393? If the later interesting, and dates with order numbers or not would be would be great for a time line. 

[Ooitame]

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

If these are serial numbers, then they start at 1 and will go to three, four, or five digits.  It looks like four digits in this case.  After finishing the initial range of numbers starting with 1, they would start using a katakana prefix that follows the iroha poem order.  In the West, we call these prefixes series marks.

1 to XXXX

イ1 to イXXXX

ロ1 to ロXXXX

 

Something similar happened with Mantetsu swords except they did not use the no prefix series that started at 1.

So if I understand, it is either 1393 or 10393? If we can get more katakana, order numbers, and dates would be great for a time line.

[Kiipu]

 A cursory search yields that this is common knowledge among officer gunto collectors that they are marked like this.

"Nagamitsu Type44 Mounting. New Today !"

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18659-nagamitsu-type44-mounting-new-today/

[Kiipu]

Looks like a Gifu stamp to me.

"Kiyotsugu Reference / Info"

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18858-kiyotsugu-reference-info/

[IJASWORDS]

Two character Nagamitsu, in 98 mounts, no stamps in date, no mune  stamps .

[Bruce Pennington]

I've updated the charts with the Fuller Survey data.  Both the Cox and Fuller surveys used vast numbers of oshigata (Cox 426; Fuller 920).  Cox stated that half (213) of those observed had stamps.  Fuller didn't say, but assuming his was the same, then only 16% (77) of the Fuller blades, with stamps, were dated.  21% (44) of the Cox blades, with stamps, were dated.  Most stamped blades are without dates. 

Small changes:

-- We see a 3 year overlap of the Showa and Seki stamps - 1940 through May 1942 (which refines the previously held "early 1942" end of the Showa stamp).

 

stamp survey (1).pdf

[Ooitame]

Nice collection Neil, first one that Saka stamp is close to the numbers, good looking koshirae. Second one is a three stroke  I believe.

 

Thomas, I am still unclear on what the katakana + the three numbers would add up too?

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Ooitame said:

Nice collection Neil, first one that Saka stamp is close to the numbers, good looking koshirae. Second one is a three stroke  I believe.

 

Thomas, I am still unclear on what the katakana + the three numbers would add up too?

 

 

Eric,

It's a way of numbering things without the numbers getting to high.  If a guy makes 10,000 blades over 7 years, he could number them from 1 to 10,000 over time.  Or he could start over at some predetermined number, like 4,000.  So the first 4,000 numbers are without kana. Once he is ready for blades 4,001, he leads with a katakana and starts over a "1".  Once that line gets to "Kana" 4,000, then he picks the next katakana in series and starts at "1" again.

 

Mantetsu did this pervasively, keeping most lines of numbering in 3-digits.

[Kiipu]

Just to make sure everyone is aware of this recent revelation by Nick, Type 100 Officer's Swords were inspected from the beginning in 1940.  This is the reason we are seeing inspection marks on this sword so early and not on Type 98s.  It may be necessary to separate Type 98 and Type 100 markings for this reason.

 

"Legally rebutting the existence of a Type 3 Army Officer's Sword"

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/f216/legally-rebutting-existence-type-3-army-officers-sword-708745-post2095801/#post2095801

 

Quote

2. To be subjected to arsenal inspection but to be sold by Kaikoh-sha and Gunjinkaikan.

 

[Ooitame]

Thank you Thomas, and Bruce.

[IJASWORDS]

A Hattori Masahiro, no date, Kai Gunto. 

[IJASWORDS]

A Kai Gunto, Kanemichi, no date.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Neil!  The kaigunto list is growing!

[IJASWORDS]

A Kanehiro (Goto), no date. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Found a 1935 Showa-stamped blade (still awaiting mei translation) fitted a canvas covered wooden saya, at a site, for sale.  Located HERE

 

Significant as it is the first 1935 I have seen.  Mal Cox sited one, Feb 1935, in his survey.  This one has no month, so it's a second verification of the earliest known Showa stamp.  It is before the oft-mentioned 1938 dated of the govt law requiring stamps.  As of yet, we have not seen documentation of the law, so we don't know for a fact that 1938 was the year it was instituted.  These 2 blades may indicate the real year was 1935 for the law.

 

The other point of interest is the canvas cover.  This could mean the use of canvas began quite early.  Not prove, as the gunto's owner could have refitted the blade later in the war.

 

The whole thing is a little puzzling with the 2 mekugi ana and civil tsuba/tsuka.

[Peter Bleed]

matsuda Kanetaka 1935

Hmmmm?

Peter

[Bruce Pennington]

55 minutes ago, Peter Bleed said:

matsuda Kanetaka 1935

Hmmmm?

Peter

Thanks Peter!  I just saw Geraint said the same thing on the Translation thread.

[mecox]

Yes,   it is Matsuda Kanetaka  松田　兼高　　and his real name was Matsuda Takaichi     松田   高市.

and yes Showa 10 1935.  Interesting early Sho stamp.

Also interesting to see the nambun tsuba and the old tsuka.  Is that leather binding?

He was registered as a toshi in Seki, Gifu 26 October, 1939 (S14.10.26) with 20 others.  Looks like a busy day.  It was a Thursday!

Mal

[mecox]

I found this....a Kanetada gunto being surrendered    http://guntoartswords.com/010802.html

 

Mal

[Bruce Pennington]

Some updates and a request for help on a number.

 

Number first.  On a Nagamitsu owned by Mauser99 (lost the thread, or I'd post a link) the number is a mystery.  It should be written with the Saka to the left like so:

 

But as you can see, the "3" is backwards.  I can see human error doing this, but then the "1" isn't the normal type for a 1 either, and not a good fit for a "7".  If you flip it, the "1" is upside down, but the number would be 1663 and the 6s look right, whereas as "9s" the 9 looks wrong.

 

Here is two for comparison (it's blurry) and you can see the 1, and the 7 is curved.  You can also see how the 9 looks.

 

Update: After calming down, I'm going for "saka" 3991, assuming the numbers guy simply had the 3 upside-down, and the 1 is just too heavily struck.

[Bruce Pennington]

George Trotter spotted and interesting thing - his Masakazu, number 1129 on nakago, has a "1" stamped on the mune.  I got to looking through my files and found 2 Nagamitsu with a "1" on the mune as well, though both of them have the entire number on the mune:

1 saka 3991

1 saka 3490

 

Two other blades with numbers on the mune are:

"6" on Masaharu

"24" on Tomonari

 

We likely will never know what THESE numbers were for.  My favorite speculation is that the RJT inspectors that went around the country collecting these blades may have had their own number.  What if these were inspectors 1, 6, and 24?  But pretend I never said that, because it's pure imagination for now.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

On 8/8/2020 at 5:16 PM, IJASWORDS said:

assembly number does not match the mune number 3978.

I just re-read the whole thread and noticed that I hadn't acknowledged your point Neil.  That's a very good example that points to the fact that these stamped numbers were not done by the fitter shops, at least on the RJT blades.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Gendaito by Muto Yukihiro, an RJT smith but this has no star stamp, so private order or made offsite. From memory date is November 1941.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Nice one John.  I have only one other blade, a Kanemoto, star, no date, with the NA/HO mix.  The HO was the inspector mark of the 1st Factory of the Kokura Army Arsenal, so seemingly a mystery - why would a Nagoya Arsenal blade have a Kokura Arsenal stamp?  But we see the same thing on Type 95s.  Kokura was the oversight of both Tokyo 1st Arsenal and Nagoya Arsenal up until 1942ish.  I don't have definitive facts on exactly WHEN Kokura stopped oversight.  One source said 1940, another 1942.  But this dated blade pushes that date to 1942.  The RJT program began in 1942, which explains the lack of star on your Yukihiro.

[Kiipu]

On 12/19/2020 at 9:37 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Gendaito by Muto Yukihiro, an RJT smith but this has no star stamp, so private order or made offsite. From memory date is November 1941.

 

Nakago Mune:　名　ホ.

Nakago Reverse:　紀元二千六百一年十一月 = November 1941.

Nakago Obverse:　筑後住武藤幸廣