Wet, dirty Saya Liners

[Bruce Pennington]

Someone on another thread wanted dimensions of the liner from a Type 95 saya, so I slid one out and posted the measurements. But afterward, I noticed how wet and saturated the ENTIRE liner was! I left it by the floor vent of a room that gets the most A/C air movement for a few days just to dry it out. After drying, I rubbed the inside with folded paper towels and was appalled at the grime that came out.

 

Since then, I've checked 3 other 95 saya. One was ok, the other two had scattered black build-up that I think is the "tanins" (if that is the right word) that can permanently stain the blade! I used course copper-wool to sand that down, and then used folded paper towels to rub the surface down, removing grime and smoothing the surface. I have 4 more to check, but wanted to put this out there. If you are able to easily remove the liners of your gunto, it might be worth checking.

 

I've tried this on my officer gunto, but have been unable to get most of them (only 1 came out) to come out. My dad's Mantetsu liner is locked in like it was glued or something.

 

Dry, but heavy black build-up

(before & after)

 

Entire liner soaking wet

[Ganko]

The good thing about these removable liners is you can clean them out so that you may reinsert a polished blade back in it's own koshirae.

[Bruce Pennington]

That's right. I already feel better about the unpolished 95s going back into cleaned liners. It's going to bug me now, until I can get the other one's checked and cleaned.

[Ganko]

  On 7/24/2020 at 3:22 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

That's right. I already feel better about the unpolished 95s going back into cleaned liners. It's going to bug me now, until I can get the other one's checked and cleaned.

Bruce, It's like a neighbor used to tell me "There's no rest for the wicked" :-)

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/24/2020 at 4:16 AM, Ganko said:

Bruce, It's like a neighbor used to tell me "There's no rest for the wicked" :-)

Zzzzzzz! What? Oh I sleep pretty good! Ha!

[Bruce Pennington]

Got to check a few more today. One was dry and clean. Second one was still tightly glued together along the mune side! I could open it just enough to clean a spot or two, but mostly in good shape. Third had only 1 half of the liner!!! And it was on one of my near-mint 95s!

 

You can see where the tannin put a permanent stain on the blade

 

Checking my copper liner was a surprise! The halves were sealed tightly with glued strips of paper! The end was made differently than the liners of the aluminum models.

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Found that even though a liner may have tannin stains, they don't always stain the blade. In fact, most of these stains are not found on the blades.

 

this one has extensive stains, while the blade is unmarked

 

Most if not all, had wet stains at the opening of the saya throat, which makes sense, as the first part of the liner absorbs the majority of the oils as the blades slides in. Goes as a reminder to not leave standing oil on the blade!

 

My late-war liner was actively wet! The outside even had greenish moldy looking spots! I had already sanded this before the picture was taken.

[Dave R]

 If you are getting tannin stains, then the liners cannot be Honoki!

[Ganko]

I suspect those stains are iron oxide transferred from the blade to the wood rather than the other way around. As Dave says Honoki can not do that.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/24/2020 at 9:00 PM, Ganko said:

I suspect those stains are iron oxide transferred from the blade to the wood rather than the other way around. As Dave says Honoki can not do that.

Ok, could be! I have an example on the outside of the liner ends where rust from the inside of the steel saya was "growing" into the wooden tips. So, your idea may explain it.

 

But now, I'm still at a loss in understanding the permanent black stains I find on blades. One of our guys had proposed the tannin idea, that it was leaching out of the wood and into the steel. If that's not the case, then what would be causing those spots? It's not rust.

 

[MarcoUdin]

I'm not an expert, but I believe those black spots are still rust. Usually when moisture gets trapped under the layer of choji oil. Usually becomes black if there is so little moisture that it does not form red rust.

 

Other possibility is saya gets swollen, makes contact with blade causing moisture to transfer from saya to blade. Which then forms rust and stains saya.

[MarcoUdin]

In general, low moisture + low oxygen = black rust.

[Shamsy]

Grease? I have some saya that seem to have been choked full of dark black grease that needs to be wiped off whenever the sword is sheathed for any length of time.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/24/2020 at 8:32 PM, Dave R said:

If you are getting tannin stains, then the liners cannot be Honoki!

While reading some of Nick's posts on the Type 95, I came across this:

 

"Back in November 1939, because of the China Incident, they had to set up B-spec materials for making the swords and at that time the scabbard liner and grip inner wood material specs were expanded to include other species.

 

Before, only magnolia was accepted, but Katsura (Caramel Tree) and Japanese Linden (Tilia japonica) were added as acceptable substitutes at that time. Shown below is the full spreadsheet for those changes which I omitted earlier, when I touched upon the changes briefly."

 

found here: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/short-development-history-type-95-gunto-676112-3/

[Kiipu]

  On 7/27/2020 at 2:54 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

While reading some of Nick's posts on the Type 95, I came across this:

"Before, only magnolia was accepted, but Katsura (Caramel Tree) and Japanese Linden (Tilia japonica) were added as acceptable substitutes at that time."

 

I would like to clarify exactly what the document is saying.  The use of "Katsura" and "Linden" was for hilt liners.  "Soft wood" was used for scabbard liners.

[Dave R]

  On 8/2/2020 at 6:51 PM, Kiipu said:

I would like to clarify exactly what the document is saying.  The use of "Katsura" and "Linden" was for hilt liners.  "Soft wood" was used for scabbard liners.

 

 In western terminoligy "softwood" means stuff like Pine, Larch or perhaps Cedar,  basicaly wood from coniferous evergreens. There are however soft "hardwoods", Lime is one of them and Alder another. What do you take as the meaning from the document.

[Kiipu]

I double-checked the translation and it does translate as "softwood."  This appears to be as you said a rather generic term and not a specific type of wood that could be used as a scabbard liner.  The hilt liner on the other hand, was a different story.  Below are the characters in case you want to pursue the matter further.

軟木 = softwood

[Mister Gunto]

I should try to check mine. 

 

Any tips on how can the wooden liner be removed without damaging either it or the scabbard? 

[PNSSHOGUN]

After going through a number of mine I was unable to remove any liners, they were stuck fast or seemed far too fragile to attempt anything forceful. I keep an eye on all of them pretty often and tend not to oil them for the most part unless needed. 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 8/5/2020 at 12:06 AM, Mister Gunto said:

I should try to check mine. 

 

Any tips on how can the wooden liner be removed without damaging either it or the scabbard? 

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Bradley,

If you're talking about NCO 95s, there is a single screw holding the saya throat in place.  Remove the screw and throat and if you're lucky, the liner slide right out.  About half of mine came out easily.  The stuck ones are often stuck at the top/opening as that is where the majority of the oils get absorbed.  I've been able to slide a very thin knife blade between the liner and the saya wall enough to loosen them.  Even with that, I've sometimes had to pincer the liner with the knife on one side and a flat screw driver on the other to pry a stubborn ones out.   I've had good luck doing it so far.

 

Almost all of my officer saya liners have refused to come out.  I've only had success with one and it was a combat saya with leather cover.

[m4l700]

Hi Bruce,

Interesting stuff! I was thinking, is there another way to clean the saya liners of the type94/98? Perhaps even without getting them out of the saya, with something like a rifle cleaning rod and a piece of microfiber cloth attached? Not sure if that would do more harm than good.

Did a quick search but couldn't really find much about it.

[Mark C]

Hi All,

 

I use a saya file that was purchased from Namikawa.

 

I wrap a piece if cotton cloth over the end and clean the inside of the liner, you would be amazed at the crap that comes out.

 

Regards

[Dave R]

I have a .22 rifle cleaning rod that I have used for the job. The trouble is that you can never tell how good a job you did. The other thing I use is one of the compressed air cans used to clean computers and keyboards, it only gets the loose stuff out but it's a start.

[mtexter]

  On 8/5/2020 at 11:29 AM, Dave R said:

The trouble is that you can never tell how good a job you did. 

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Unless you get an endoscope like someone linked the other day on another thread.  I bought one on Amazon for $20, seems like a useful thing to have around!