Which era ?

Surfson · July 22, 2020

Good fun Jacques, thanks!

AntiquarianCat · July 22, 2020

I read somewhere (I can’t remember) that if the hamon starts with suguha that a possible sign of pre Shinto make. Is that true at all? And if so is it just a weak association?

16k · July 22, 2020

Actually, it is the reverse. A yakidashi is often the telltale mark of Shinto. But of course, nothing is ever that simple, unfortunately...

Hoshi · July 22, 2020

I like how we're all trained to say "Kanbun Shinto" as reflex number 1. And reflex number two is some variation of Mino. And understandably these are the most common ones to go around here and just looking at the base rate it gives us the best odds provided shape matches more or less.

With the information available, the correct kantei here would be something which matches as close as possible the shape and hamon pattern - possibly later gen Kanemoto when the Sanbonsugi becomes so regular it's almost mechanical. Sukesada later gen could also work. The issue which really makes it tricky is that the hamon here doesn't represent the essence of any one maker. It has a regular Sanbonsugi portion and a suguha portion...what a curveball.

So funnily enough I don't think Kanbun Shinto Mino would have been so far off the mark in terms of kantei.

Wisdom of the crowd...

Jacques D. · July 22, 2020

. It has a regular Sanbonsugi portion and a suguha portion...what a curveball.

No,no sanbonsugi on that hamon. but togari and gunome connected by notare which is characteristical for Muramasa. There is also angular hako-midare elements.

Tom Darling · July 22, 2020

Jacques,

I would never have guest of 1st gen Muramasa, It is the most serene 1st gen. I have ever seen. Completely different from tanto (active) hamon of 1st. gen. Thank you for showing.

Tom D.

PNSSHOGUN · July 23, 2020

Hmmm, I'll go and look at my old Sengo blade in Shingunto koshirae, with unusual hanger. I've been meaning to put it up here for a long time - straws on my back!!!

BaZZa.

Let us see!

The Snowflake · July 23, 2020

I like how we're all trained to say "Kanbun Shinto" as reflex number 1. And reflex number two is some variation of Mino. And understandably these are the most common ones to go around here and just looking at the base rate it gives us the best odds provided shape matches more or less.

With the information available, the correct kantei here would be something which matches as close as possible the shape and hamon pattern - possibly later gen Kanemoto when the Sanbonsugi becomes so regular it's almost mechanical. Sukesada later gen could also work. The issue which really makes it tricky is that the hamon here doesn't represent the essence of any one maker. It has a regular Sanbonsugi portion and a suguha portion...what a curveball.

So funnily enough I don't think Kanbun Shinto Mino would have been so far off the mark in terms of kantei.

Wisdom of the crowd...

Agreed

Sanbonsugi is definitely there and its a great mix between Muramasa's roots in Yamashiro and Mino, nice kantei exercise

Hoshi · July 23, 2020

I've gone through many Muramasa and I do find this distinctive hamon pattern especially in Ko-Wakizashi. I wish it had its own name. A pattern of three spikes repeating at an interval. "Gunome connected by notare" just doesn't capture it. I do agree that the most characteristic would have more angular elements in place of the spikes, which we are so accustomed to in Muramasa's work.

Good exercise!

16k · July 23, 2020

I've gone through many Muramasa and I do find this distinctive hamon pattern especially in Ko-Wakizashi. I wish it had its own name. A pattern of three spikes repeating at an interval. "Gunome connected by notare" just doesn't capture it. I do agree that the most characteristic would have more angular elements in place of the spikes, which we are so accustomed to in Muramasa's work.

Good exercise!

It’s called "hako Midare" if memory serves.

16k · July 23, 2020

...This was a great exercise and we need more in the great atmosphere this one took place.

But Rayhan's remark makes me ask a question: Aren’t Muramasa's roots in Mino and Soshu?

Alex A · July 23, 2020

Not an easy exercise, unless you are really familiar with hamon of a particular smith.

Didnt spend long on it, just picked up on parts of the hamon, jumped in with both feet just because it reminded me of swords like this, perhaps i will refrain from jumping in with the first thing that comes to mind.

Anyways, would be easy to dismiss now, but some similarities (from memory, which is not the best way to go about it, must look carefully)

http://new.uniquejapan.com/a-bizen-yokoyama-sukenori-wakizashi/

The Snowflake · July 24, 2020

JP no war coming. I believe Jacques is still upset from me calling him out on another post but, in this case he is very much true to say it is a different variation and as we are students here we must be exact in what we are saying, so Jacques, allow me to correct myself then. I did call Muromachi in this test and Mino. I also said Hizen but that is because I saw Yamashiro. Please bear with me...

First a note on how I feel about Oshigata. Oshigata are a single interpretation of any view of the sword being studied at that very moment. Usually when Oshigata are started they are completed without stopping or taking your eyes off the sword because from one moment to the next you can see different things. Ask a student of Nihonto to do an Oshigata of a blade in the AM and again in the PM (depending on how much beer was consumed at lunch time) you will get 2 separate versions of the same blade.

In this version I interpreted the top 3 peaks to be Sanbon Sugi variants, Muramasa or Sengo school, had a very specific interpretation of their own, but JP, the key is in the name and Jacques is correct to call me out on it. San - 3, Bon - Godly or spirit, Sugi - Evergreen tree so the truth is in the name itself and is very exacting.

In her article on Muramasa from the blog https://studyingjapaneseswords.com/tag/sanbon-sugi/ the author explains the context of Sanbon Sugi and its relation to Muramasa very clearly. She also highlights that Muramasa studied under Heianjo Nagayoshi who is traditionally a Yamashiro smith and did most of his work in that style. https://yuhindo.com/heianjo-nagayoshi/

Markus Sesko in his book Nihon Koto Shi describes the work of Muarmasa and his connections to Yamashiro also

“5.5. Seishū-mono (Swords of Ise Province)

Muramasa,who lived in Kuwana (桑名) of Ise Province, is a well-known smith and one theory says that he was a student of Masamune, but today it is accepted that this is a groundless theory. His earliest production date is the Bunki Era (文亀, 1501-1504), followed by the Eishō (永正, 1504-1521). It is speculated that there were three generation of Muramasa, inferring from the different workmanships. Masashige (正重), Masazane (正真) and Fujimasa (藤正), who is believed to have been the students of Muramasa, were active in the same period. Muramasa and his school (Sengo, 千子) temper ō-notare mixed with gunome which resembles that of Heianjō Nagayoshi. It reminds us of the close connection between Muramasa and Nagayoshi. Also Muramasa demonstrates a workmanship that has a close resemblance to No-Sada (Izumi no Kami Kanesada, 和泉守兼定) of the Sue-Seki school.

There is an extant work of No-Sada with the mei of ‘Ise Yamada ni oite kore o saku’ (於伊勢山田是作) and a tantō that Muramasa make in Seki with Seki Kanenaga (関兼永). Muramasa makes a unique nakago called tanago-bara and the Shitahara (下原) school of Musashi province also show this. A theory says that Muramasa passed it on to Shitahara smiths. Shitahara smiths presented their swords to the Kuwana Shrine so it is speculated that the both schools had a close relationship.

Apart from the smiths of the Sengo school, a smith called Kanenaga lived around the Bunki and Tenbun Eras (天文, 1532-1555) in Ujii (雲林院) of Ise Province. He demonstrates a workmanship similar to that of the Sue-Tegai school. I have seen a tanto with hitatsura based on gunome by him. Swordsmith directories list a smith called Masamori but I have seen no extant work by him. “ Nihon Koto Shi by Markus Sesko, Pages 246 to 247

In the Nihonto Koza Volume 2 on page 249 the author gives a lumped description of the Murumasa style varying Katana, OWaki and Tanto “ Hamon ^3 It is basically nioi and there is a taste of clumped nie. There are notare, notare midare, o-midare, gonome togari, sanbon tsugi, hako midare nado. All of them are extremely exaggerated, characteristics are that the tani of the midare press close upon the ha saki, there are also some which appear to leave the blade, and the tani between midare and midare become notare. Also, as for the sanbon tsugi, it does not become that alone as in that of MINO KANEMOTO and it has the habit of being three at a time, with one midare between.

[in other words, it is NOT TSURETE.] There are also some tempered with a koshiba, the piece shown in the frontispiece section of this book is the most appropriate example, and those in which the hamon on the omote and ura match are the most common.”

Jacques, I think when looking at Muramasa and the Hamon it is important to note the Ise smiths took influence from all sides. That and the historical connotation that Muramasa was to be ostracized by the Tokugawa would mean having to change their working styles through the lifetime of their careers so as not to completely go out of business. I am not a big fan of Muramasa, I find his work confusing and appealing as such to those that favor his legend of despair and downfall, there is not much beauty in Sengo blades. Look at the Shitahara and I see more beauty even though they have a low reputation which is unfounded and should be researched more. There are the Nobukuni and other Soshu smiths like Hirotsugu or indeed Yosozaemon Sukesada that one should study from the Muromachi period to really see mastery. Togari is also something to be studied in more detail and it is not exclusive to Muramasa, this can be found in Hizen, Yoshioka Ichimonji and Bizen Osafune. Therefore, the kantei should be on all aspects of the sword, not just the Togari.

But, thank you for giving me an opportunity to go back to my library and look at Hamon.

Brian · July 24, 2020

Jacques, you were doing so well. Don't spoil it with insults. Everyone else is trying really hard. Comment removed, try and be polite please. This was a nice thread from you, don't spoil it.

Jacques D. · July 24, 2020

Jacques, you were doing so well. Don't spoil it with insults. Everyone else is trying really hard. Comment removed, try and be polite please. This was a nice thread from you, don't spoil it.

Ok, as i think i'm clever enough i will ignore this guy even if his behavior is not fortuitous.

I want to add topic is not Muramasa but in which era a certain kind of hamon was produced. Speaking about Muramasa is totally off topic as i could take works of others smithes for example.

Jacques D. · July 24, 2020

Just for fun,

This sword was given as kantei by the NBTHK answer below...

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