seattle1 Posted November 30, 2013 Report Posted November 30, 2013 Hello: To discuss who might be the current Shogun, if the institution had not withered, almost suggests that there is some struggle among claimants. I do not believe that is so. I met, dined with, travelled with Tokugawa Yasuhisa on a number of occasions through my involvement with the KTK. He does talk about his ancestry in good spirit, not wistfully, just factually and only informatively. What is clear is that the last Shogun, Yoshinobu, was his blood relative by direct decent. He was, as the 15th Shogun, the son of the prince of Mito, Nariaki, was adopted into the Hitotsubashi family, initially proposed as the successor of the 13th Shogun Iyesada in 1858, and subsequently became a candidate to succeed the 14th, Iyemochi, in 1866. Had a 16th Sogun been chosen by direct decent, that would have been Tokugawa Yasuhisa's great grandfather, however the actually path of the 15 Shoguns who actually served took quite a circuitious route from time to time, and who know who would fill that position today? It is really interesting to read of the lineage in Papinot. Historical and Geographical Dictionary of Japan, a learning treasure for all collectors, or in Ryotaro Shiba's The Last Shogun: The Life of Tokugawa Yoshinobu. As for "sensei," the word means teacher. I believe it is appropriate to use it as an honorific for someone with active students, or someone who addresses, through some medium, an audience interested and anxious to learn, particularly to learn some highly specialized knowledge that is hard to have come by on the part of the sensei. I don't think one would address a kindergarten teacher of the ABCs as sensei, but for a Japanese highly qualified craftsmen with students, sword scholars such as Drs. Homa, Sato and Tanobe, by all means. Arnold F.
cabowen Posted November 30, 2013 Report Posted November 30, 2013 Just to clarify, the issue wasn't whether it was appropriate or not to use "sensei", it was whether or not it was inappropriate to use "san"...
Guido Posted November 30, 2013 Report Posted November 30, 2013 Just to clarify, the issue wasn't whether it was appropriate or not to use "sensei", it was whether or not it was inappropriate to use "san"... ... "-sensei" would be much more appropriate than "-san" for top ranking traditional craftsmen ... Just to clarify, you are mistaken ....
cabowen Posted November 30, 2013 Report Posted November 30, 2013 My reply was in reference to Brian and Clive's posts. Not yours. But thanks for the clarification.
Robert Mormile Posted December 1, 2013 Report Posted December 1, 2013 I am required to speak Japanese each day for work and have taken on a methodology that works for me quite will. When speaking English I use Mr. or Dr., when appropriate. I really try to avoid using san or sensei anywhere in English; these words are not English. There are all sorts of situations that get uncomfortable and start to sound rather awkward when you start adding and subtracting these words in English. Other than god, “sama” is almost exclusively used for customers. In Japanese, I have heard sensei used for those with a Ph.D. / M.D. and teachers. I would disagree with Arnold with respect to not calling a grade school teacher sensei. It is not only the person but the position that is honored. Parents are entrusting the education of their young children to the teacher and education is as sacred religion in Japan. I address Mr. Fujishiro as 藤代先生 (Fujishiro-sensei) because although he is not my teacher, he is a teacher. Most master craftmen in Japan have students and I have heard them called sensei by their students and by others. Robert
cabowen Posted December 1, 2013 Report Posted December 1, 2013 Most master craftmen in Japan have students and I have heard them called sensei by their students and by others. Have you ever heard any of them referred to as "san" by others?
Robert Mormile Posted December 1, 2013 Report Posted December 1, 2013 Yes, I have heard them referred to as san by others. Robert
Guido Posted December 2, 2013 Report Posted December 2, 2013 In my experience, "sensei" is even used for kindergarden teachers - however, in that case given name + sensei. Also for politicians, especially diet members. Sama - as mentioned - for customers, including when one's name is called at a doctor's/hospital's waiting room. Members of the royal family (excluding the emperor) are also refered to as "sama", in that case it's written in Hiragana (still couldn't find out why). In direct speech they are addressed by their title (Heika for the Emperor, Princes/s Denka/Hidenka). Tono (-dono) I've seen only on documents/certificates, like on NBTHK papers. Keigo (honorific speech) is one of the most difficult parts of the Japanese language. There's only so much one can learn fom books (or talking to the neighborhood Tōfu vendor ), being in social situations where Keigo is of the utmost importance taught me most of what I know.
Guido Posted December 2, 2013 Report Posted December 2, 2013 When speaking English I use Mr. or Dr., when appropriate. I really try to avoid using san or sensei anywhere in English; these words are not English. There are all sorts of situations that get uncomfortable and start to sound rather awkward when you start adding and subtracting these words in EnglishI couldn't agree more. That's why I posted what I did.
runagmc Posted December 2, 2013 Report Posted December 2, 2013 So would the Japanese members rather be adressed as "Mr. NAME" or "NAME-san"? I think most of us have used san thinking we were doing right. Maybe they don't mind either way, realizing some of us are ignorant about it? It would be nice to know, as I'm sure we would all use the correct form if we knew it...
cabowen Posted December 2, 2013 Report Posted December 2, 2013 As I see it Adam, the point is there is no absolute "correct" form here....Since it is an English language forum, you are perfectly fine using "Mr.", or if you want to parallel the use of "sensei", then use "Master". If you want to follow Japanese convention, use are fine with either "san" or "sensei". If the Emperor decides to post, then you might want to use "Sama".... :lol:
Guido Posted December 2, 2013 Report Posted December 2, 2013 If the Emperor decides to post, then you might want to use "Sama".... :lol:Which, of course, would be wrong.
cabowen Posted December 2, 2013 Report Posted December 2, 2013 If the Emperor decides to post, then you might want to use "Sama".... :lol:Which, of course, would be wrong. Guess you weren't aware that that is how he prefers to be addressed by his American friends, and I hear he and Adam are quite tight.... That too, by the way, was not meant to be serious....pssst: the smilies are a tip off....
Brian Posted December 3, 2013 Report Posted December 3, 2013 And if the Emperor decides to comment, then I'll open it. But I think we all get the idea. Might decide to split this topic into 2, one dealing with honorifics. Brian
Recommended Posts