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Mishina Hon'ami Lecture

John A Stuart
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John A Stuart

John A Stuart

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Hi All, Last night we attended a lecture by Mishina Kenji san and a polishing demo by Hon'ami Koshu san. In the pic you can see Hon'ami san holding a ko-Bizen kokuho, Mishina san standing behind him and Clive from the British Token Society with a tie looking on. This is a cultural series in PR for the olympic bid 2016 and was for neophytes (politicos in particular). The ambassadors for Bahrain and Rumania were there. Still interesting though. John

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Pete Klein Grand Master

Pete Klein

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Hi Henry -- yeah, I noticed him also. In the entranceway -- I believe that is the Tokugawa heir who is involved with the KTK and new organization attempt. He looks like the gentleman in the KTK book pictures.

  • 5 years later...
Surfson Grand Master

Surfson

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I just received three swords from Japan, polished by Mishina San and with sayagaki by Hon'ami Koshu san. All the work on mounts (saya, shirasaya, habaki, seppa etc.) was done by mukansa level artisans. I have to say that the result is absolutely strikingly beautiful and impressive. Hon'ami's sayagaki are very artful and attractive and Mishina san is a top class polisher.

Guido Grand Master

Guido

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Not that it really matters on this forum, but if people feel the urge to use Japanese honorifics, "-sensei" would be much more appropriate than "-san" for top ranking traditional craftsmen ... ;)

Brian

Brian

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So why would it not matter On the forum Guido?

I find people here to be generally very respectful of Japanese seniors, artisans, artists and public. Any "slips" are usually not intended and well meaning.

 

Anyhoo, you are correct in your advice.

Btw, I think I was at that lecture way back in 2008. Part of the most amazing vacation I have ever had, and probably ever will have.

 

Brian

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

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So why would it not matter On the forum Guido?

I find people here to be generally very respectful of Japanese seniors, artisans, artists and public. Any "slips" are usually not intended and well meaning.

 

Anyhoo, you are correct in your advice.

Btw, I think I was at that lecture way back in 2008. Part of the most amazing vacation I have ever had, and probably ever will have.

 

Brian

 

I've never heard anyone in Japan refer to either of these fine gentleman as "sensei"- it is certainly no "slip" to call them by the usual "san", nor is it disrespectful in any way.

Clive Sinclaire Rising Star

Clive Sinclaire

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Gentlemen

I was also at that lecture and am in that photo (the smartly dressed dude with the shirt and tie)

 

I just received three swords from Japan, polished by Mishina San and with sayagaki by Hon'ami Koshu san. All the work on mounts (saya, shirasaya, habaki, seppa etc.) was done by mukansa level artisans. I have to say that the result is absolutely strikingly beautiful and impressive. Hon'ami's sayagaki are very artful and attractive and Mishina san is a top class polisher.

I just received three swords from Japan, polished by Mishina San and with sayagaki by Hon'ami Koshu san. All the work on mounts (saya, shirasaya, habaki, seppa etc.) was done by mukansa level artisans. I have to say that the result is absolutely

Istrikingly beautiful and impressive. Hon'ami's sayagaki are very artful and attractive and Mishina san is a top class polisher.

I must also say that I am not surprised that you are pleased with your polishes. I have had many swords polished by Mishina over the years and never been disapointed. Interestingly, I always thought that all shinshinto blades were muji-hada but Mishina is skilled at bringing out the usually tight jihada in these swords to great effect. His family have been very good to me and my family over the last 25 years or so and I count him amongst my best friends.

 

Whilst I hope I have your attention, may I tell you that about 3 weeks ago, I sat at a table in Saitama-ken looking at swords and later drinking much sake, with no less than seven polishers, including Mishina sensei and sasaki sensei (also a family friend for many years) and at the time I had no swords requiring polishing!

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

 

PS I agree with Guido, sensei is the correct form and shows due respect even when on the NMB

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
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PS I agree with Guido, sensei is the correct form and shows due respect even when on the NMB

 

There is certainly nothing wrong with showing respect by using the "sensei" honorific but in this case it can't be said to be the "correct" form and there is certainly no disrespect implied to either of them by using "san". Having lived in Japan for 14 or so years and having spent time in the company of many mukansa level craftsman, including MIshina san and Honami san, again, I have never had the occasion to witness anyone address either of them as "sensei". At least no native Japanese. I have heard others refer to Ningen Kokuho, like Nagayama Kokan, as sensei, however.

 

According to one source: "Sensei is applied to doctors, teachers and masters of any profession or art. It is also standard for professional writers who are classed as teachers. In short, the rule of thumb runs thus: doctors, teachers, lawyers, writers and scientists who got their doctorates are called "sensei" automatically, with the others it's debatable.In recent years "sensei" has become an all-purpose suck-up word, and is now more often used sarcastically or ironically than as a genuinely respectful term in many situations."

 

"Shisho" is more commonly heard in traditional craft circles, such as those involved with Nihon-to. Similar to "sensei", but limited to some traditional Japanese arts and crafts, including martial arts. Can be used as a stand-alone word, it's usually translated as "master". It also denotes extreme respect from the speaker to their target. I have heard this word used most often by deshi referring to their teacher.

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

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Outside of a few set phrases, "sama" is almost unheard as an honorific in contemporary, everyday Japanese speech. It is used to address customers sometimes in business but it is seen more than heard, primarily in writing as it is used after the addressee on all mail.

 

I took an American friend to meet with Tanobe san at the NBTHK one time and he kept referring to Tanobe san as "Tanobe Sama", who smiled every time he said it. I knew my friend meant nothing but respect but it was fawning with a suck up factor off the charts. I still give him a hard time about it today. It remains the only time I ever actually heard anyone use it seriously in everyday conversation in Japan.

Ken-Hawaii Grand Master

Ken-Hawaii

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"Shisho" is more commonly heard in traditional craft circles, such as those involved with Nihon-to. Similar to "sensei", but limited to some traditional Japanese arts and crafts, including martial arts.

 

Chris, I've never heard Shisho applied to any martial art sensei or art, & I started in 1951.... :dunno:

 

Ken

kusunokimasahige Grand Master

kusunokimasahige

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When honorific speach is used I prefer Sensei when dealing with good artisans and craftsmen. Sama is a bit over the top. I also learned (on this forum) that to use Dono or Tono is condascending, just like Kisama, which in Edo period Japan was not at all that degrading. So yes, language changes. When I called a lovely Japanese friend of mine who is of the Fujiwara family "Hime", she went out of her way to explain to me that she was not a princess but just a normal lady. :) I still found it better than "chan" on that specific occasion... A birthday wish in classical Japanese.

 

KM

Brian

Brian

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QUICK, BRIAN - LOCK IT -- LOCK IT BEFORE IT STARTS!!! ROFLMAO!!! :rofl:

Careful Pete, or I'll make you a mod and doom you to the life of the "damned if I do, damned if I don't" :glee:

 

Thanks for the clarification folks. Shows how little I know/knew about honorifics. But I presume anyone addressed here would know the intent, and not feel offended. I think a lot of Japanese people are used to our confusion, and let it slide. I didn't know that "sama" wasn't used much.

Some days I give thanks for just having the word "sir" :)

 

Brian

Guido Grand Master

Guido

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I've never heard anyone in Japan refer to either of these fine gentleman as "sensei"- ...
Just a few examples of websites where Mishina Kenji and Honami Kōshū are refered to as “sensei” by native Japanese:

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 9Vvehk6Fyw

http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~ontama/writings.html

http://www.geocities.jp/ntooma/nihontouwabunka.html

http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00210.html

http://tousyoukai.seesaa.net/archives/200805-1.html

 

And from the second link a great example of the correct usage of Shishō and Sensei:

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cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

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Again, as I said, I have never heard anyone in Japan refer to either of these gentleman as "sensei" in conversation. Perhaps if I had had the opportunity to meet one of their deshi, such as the one quoted above, I would have had a different experience.

 

But really, that is beside the point, which is the fact that there is no disrespect whatsoever for people here to use "san".

 

But I appreciate the effort made to clarify the situation.

Surfson Grand Master

Surfson

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Hi All. My how we do get distracted! I do address Mishina Sensei as sensei in our correspondences but I do agree with Chris that it is not an obligatory title, especially when he is not part of the conversation. (by the way, I encouraged Mishina Sensei to rejoin the NMB and believe that he may pop in from time to time). As to the blades, one of them, a Shimada Sukemune that was previously discussed on the NMB, was among those sent.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11579

 

I am attaching a few images. Interestingly, another sword that I sent him was by Echizen Tsuda Sukehiro, the inventor of toranba and the teacher of Shimada Sukemune. You can see the beautiful toranba in this blade. i have to admit that I am partial to Mishina blades, which is ironic since Mishina san polished them! Cheers, Bob

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Mishina Newbie

Mishina

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Dear Henrry,

He is the heir of the Tokugawa shogun family, Iehiro Tokugawa. His father, Tsunenari is the 19th Tokugawa shogun family. I know him very very well and wil have Christmas dinner with him mext month. He is very cheerful and talkative gentleman and speaks perfect English. The gentleman at the corner of the photo of my lecture is Mr. Yasuhisa Tokugawa. He is a great grandson of the last shogun Tokugawa Yoshinobu. I know him very well too. He is the head priest of the Yasukuni Shrine now and I think he is still the chairman of the KTK. The last shogun Yoshinobu resigned to have his sons to succeed to the Tokugawa shogun family as he fought against the Royal Army (it means against the Emperor) at the Meiji restoration.

Mishina

Henry Wilson Veteran

Henry Wilson

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Dear Mr Mishina

 

Thank you for the message. I met Mr Iehiro Tokugawa and his wife a while ago and I fondly recall them both being very pleasant. The other people who you have indicated, I have never met and thank you for bringing their names and interesting information about them to my attention.

 

I hope all is well with you and best regards.

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