Iron civilian gunto tsuba

[Bruce Pennington]

Another bamboo leaf pattern posted by @Stewart HERE.

 

[Dave R]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:34 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Good points, Neil.  I'm no civil sword guy at all, but I wouldn't think old tsuba ever had a hole for a leather strap.  Guys correct me if I'm wrong.  And you can see yours was made with the hole.  It wasn't cut into an older tsuba.  The art was crafted around the hole. 

 

 

 

 A lot of, in fact most, old tsuba have that hole, but it's for the kodzuka not a leather strap!

[Bruce Pennington]

A plain tsuba posted by @Yukihiro HERE.

 

[Yukihiro]

Here is a better picture. This one is not made of iron, though : it seems to be solid brass.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

We have 2 threads discussing these, so here is the link to the other one:

 

 

Chris, @vajo has posted one found on, what is probably, a Naval civil employee gunto HERE.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Found an interesting one on this May Premier Military Fine Auction.  An old, signed blade in combat saya and NAVY tsuba fittings.  The same' is white (or some other light color) and may explain some of the photos we see of Navy personel with swords showing 'white' same'.  

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

A silver-plated one, posted by @vajo HERE.

[vajo]

Bruce no. The tsuba with the sword i owned was not this silver plated blossom tsuba. I was refering to the fittings that are showa era. 

The Blade inside that sword is a Kunimori gendaito. He made that sword around 1937 - ? on the ground of Baron Okura. 

The reason i changed the  Owari Tsuba was because it was to small for that sword in size and needs a third additional seppa. I tried the showa civillian tsuba and it fit perfect without anything and i could remove the third seppa. Now the sword has 2 perfect fittet silver seppa, the tsuka with its silver fuchi, kashira, menuki and that what i think a silver plated civillian tsuba. All from the same period. The saya is wooden made with paper wrapping and urushi lacquer. 

 

I would not take that sword as reference for the civilian tsuba. Sorry for the confusion i made.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, vajo said:

I would not take that sword as reference for the civilian tsuba

Ok, thanks for the clarification, Chris.  It's still a good representative of the civil service tsuba, though.  I'd like to use this thread to catalog all the examples we find.

[vajo]

I'm very happy with it Bruce. Hard to make photo but it looks very noble.

[Bruce Pennington]

@Bruno and I were discussing this tsuba I had called a "fig leaf" pattern on the first page, but I cannot find the reference, or the post, where someone identified it as such.  I always thought it looked like a grape leaf, and Bruno thought it resembled the paulownia (kiri) leaf.

 

Anyone have a definitive idea on the pattern?

 

[Jcstroud]

43 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

@Bruno and I were discussing this tsuba I had called a "fig leaf" pattern on the first page, but I cannot find the reference, or the post, where someone identified it as such.  I always thought it looked like a grape leaf, and Bruno thought it resembled the paulownia (kiri) leaf.

 

Anyone have a definitive idea on the pattern?

 

Looks like papaya leaves I believe.

[vajo]

Japanese wine leafs

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

43 minutes ago, vajo said:

wine leafs

Grape?  And now that you mention it, I can even see the little grapes mixed in with the leaves on the tsuba!

[robinalexander]

I think it's between the Pawlownia (Kiri...Empress Tree..Adam Tree...Princess Tree) and Chris' Grape.  Both have close resemblance to the above tsuba.

 

Both also have a very general tri shape, prominent veins and small round fruit or seeds however in this disussion, I favour the resemblance of the Paulownia over that of the grape.

 

I can't find any historical or spiritual importance in the humble grape.  It appears Japan only had one type of indigenous (Koshu) grape from Yamanashi Prefecture. So traditionally grapes don't appear to be 'big' in Japan in terms of symbolism. 

 

The Paulowinia on the other has been valued and used for its timber since 200 AD and has significant cultural importance with the flower being the official symbol of the Japanese Prime Minister's office.

 

A couple of pics from the net.

 

Rob

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

It is my thought that all of these plants would be found to have significance in Japanese culture, the Sakura, bamboo, and this one.  While this one looks like grape to me, if no one knows of a cultural significance to the grape, I would lean toward the paulownia/Kiri.  
 

Rob’s post would support the paulownia.  
 

Still waiting for any other thoughts on this, before I send it over to the nihonto guys.

[robinalexander]

Tks Bruce.... I should make it clear that I have absolutely no real knowledge in the matter of vegetation on Tsuba's (or any other fitting for that matter).

 

For my part its simply a little research and opinion. 

[vajo]

I was looking on the leaf and the little fruits and it looks more like wine then paulownia for me. 

 

So we had civillian tsuba from

- Bamboo

- Cherry

- Plum 

- ...

 

 

I think that old Japanese wine plant looks different to the european modern ones (smaller and less berries) that are planted after the war for the wine industrie?

 

Viticulture in Japan has a long tradition. However, during the period when phylloxera was decimating European vineyards, Japan even exported wine made from this grape. In Japan, viticulture has been a tradition since at least the 12th century.

Viticulture in the western sense only developed after Japan opened up in the 19th century. A pioneer and often called the father of Japanese viticulture was Zenbē Kawakami, who was able to establish the first national quality wine variety through decades of systematic crossbreeding
 

(wikipedia)

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, vajo said:

the little fruits and it looks more like wine then paulownia for me. 

Dang.  And you're right about the shape of the 3 'fingers' of the leaves.  The grape points stick out more than the paulownia, which matches the tsuba leaves more accurately.

[John C]

Probably a dumb question, however I'll ask anyway. 

I know bamboo is a grass, however do the other tsuba-themed flowers bloom at different times? I am wondering if the symbolism is seasonal. 

John C.

[Bazza]

Yesterday Robin Alexander wrote:

> can't find any historical or spiritual importance in the humble grape.  It appears Japan only had one type of indigenous

> (Koshu) grape from Yamanashi Prefecture. So traditionally grapes don't appear to be 'big' in Japan in terms of symbolism. 

 

I'd just like to interject here to point out that the grape and squirrel motif has been discussed in these pages.  I searched on 'grape squirrel' and had more than one hit, but here's one just to kick off the byway:

BaZZa.

[robinalexander]

Thanks Baz, I'm forever being enlightened. (Its a wonderful thing)

 

When I wrote that, I was aware it was a bit of a game call but if it was off tne mark, then I would soon find out.

 

I will read those threads with interest.....from my chair on the sideline 

[Bruce Pennington]

 "The Japanese word for grape is budo, and that is of course a homonym for "way of the martial arts.""

 

Thanks Barry, @Bazza!  This seems to be a likely path to the leaves in question.  I like it.  "Budo"

[Bruno]

While looking for the "grape" type tsuba, I recently found and bought these 2 types tusba (these types were already posted here. by another member)

[John C]

Grape-themed menuki as well...

John C.

[SteveM]

The word for grape in Japanese (budō) is a homonym for "way of the warrior" (武道 - also budō).

I don't know if that is why this motif was selected for inclusion on military mounts, but it feels like an obvious connection. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Found another of the OP style, posted by @Javi E HERE, on an old Nagamitsu blade re-fitted for the war.

 

[Bruno]

Any idea what these 6 marks are for on this tsuba? I have see another similar tsuba with the axact same marks, so since it is a cast tsuba, these marks are also casted?

[vajo]

No Bruno. These marks are hammered to fit the nakago ana to the blade.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, Bruno said:

Any idea what these 6 marks are for on this tsuba? I have see another similar tsuba with the axact same marks, so since it is a cast tsuba, these marks are also casted?

In manufacturing it is called staking a way to seal ,tighten objects together. Sometimes used to tighten up bearing housings or other loose fitting assemblies.also known as peening.