What in the world is this called?

[ChrisW]

Hey everyone,

 

I was browsing my favorite buyer beware environment (other than the local supermarket!) and I found this. At first, I cringed when I saw that then I began to wonder if it was actually done long ago. I am still cringing though. The patina in the divets appears old (and it shows in the antiquated 'daimyo' papers) but there's also active rust in it which suggests mistreatment.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Daimyo-Registered-Japanese-SWORD-WAKIZASHI-MASATSUGU-signed-w-NBTHK-HOZON/254654136279?hash=item3b4a91bfd7:g:LaYAAOSwKERfBITH

 

What is this? An actual thing like double bohi or a severe case of mistreatment?

 

[Ganko]

Just when you thought you'd seen everything. That is really strange.

[Surfson]

Interesting experiment.

[Ken-Hawaii]

If it wasn't for the papers, I'd say that it was a badly-forged blade, where the tosho or togishi carved out a massive bohi, to remove/hide a really-major flaw. How it papered, I haven't a clue.

[ChrisW]

That is what bugs me! How did it paper? Were they literally just taking any blade by an affluent family and papering it after the war?

 

If it is truly a bohi, it is immeasurably crude. Little better than using a melon baller and carving out hunks of the metal.

[Ken-Hawaii]

My sword mentor made the interesting comment that this is simply a Gendai smith, who is exercising his free license of "Art Swords."

 

I think I'll go back to NTHK, rather than NBTHK, if this is really the case.

[ChrisW]

I think you might have a point there... NTHK have more information on their papers anyways.

[Guido]

  On 7/16/2020 at 6:29 AM, Ken-Hawaii said:

My sword mentor made the interesting comment that this is simply a Gendai smith, who is exercising his free license of "Art Swords."

 

Did he actually read the paper, or simply dismiss it?

[ChrisW]

Can't say I can find records of this particular swordsmith and I am unable to read the daimyo papers. All I know is that the seller claims its from the Edo period. And it looks like a blindingly bright hadori polish on one side and lack of yokote on both.

[Shugyosha]

Is this another sword ruined by someone like "Samurai Monkey"? I'm assuming the "improvements" were made after it went to shinsa?

[Shugyosha]

Actually I'm wrong: you can see the butt end of the hi in the picture of the tang on the kanteisho.

[vajo]

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think u guys are funny judging blades like this.

I dont think this is carved out but was done while the steel was hot.

[Shugyosha]

Well, however it came about, it sure is fugly.

[Jussi Ekholm]

In Hozon paper added in brackets (武蔵 - 享保頃) Musashi - Kyōhō goro (c.1716 - 1736).

 

Unfortunately I don't have knowledge about this type of carving, so I don't know if there is specific meaning behind it.

[Brian]

Sorry to say...but I don't hate it.
It might have some religious or symbolic meaning. But it isn't boring. And I also think it was done whilst being forged.

[Guido]

The smith is listed in the meikan (page 863), and there are no “daimyō papers”, just a photo of the registration. And katakiriba swords usually don’t have a yokote.

 

I don’t know the seller, I don’t endorse the sale, I don’t like the horimono - I just find all this shooting from the hip and NBTHK bashing - instead of doing some basic research - kind of annoying.

[Katsujinken]

  On 7/16/2020 at 10:38 AM, Guido Schiller said:

The smith is listed in the meikan (page 863), and there are no “daimyō papers”, just a photo of the registration. And katakiriba swords usually don’t have a yokote.

 

I don’t know the seller, I don’t endorse the sale, I don’t like the horimono - I just find all this shooting from the hip and NBTHK bashing - instead of doing some basic research - kind of annoying.

Indeed, thank you Guido. You guys are really hilarious sometimes.

[ChrisW]

Being that I don't know what kind of horimono this is, its kind of hard to do some "basic" research upon it. Apparently everyone else has turned up the same level of information, except our German Chris who has apparently owns or has found another.(As an aside, where'd you find it?) Also, I wasn't bashing the NBTHK, just a basic statement of fact that their certificates DO have less information written upon them. I was originally agreeing with Ken that this might be a gendaito with some artistic work done on it. And if you called a certificate "daimyo," all I know is that it means it was done shortly after the war's end in the first few years of registration as only daimyo were invited to do so.

And that makes sense about how it was done. Maybe it is meant to be ugly as a statement? As Brian said, it definitely isn't boring... just odd. It kind of reminds me of a 'bitten or claw gouged' aesthetic, so maybe it is meant to represent some kind of demonic aesthetic?

 

Repeating the original purpose for this thread: Does anyone know what this style of horimono is called? I know now its likely to be original to the piece and was done historically. I kind of like it, despite its crudeness. It still makes me cringe though.

[vajo]

Found this on printerest Chris. Above was a link of David Thatcher but i didnt found it on his facebook account. I know nothing about the picture. It has only the similarities of the sword above with the strange "horimono". 

 

I would go with Brian that this is something religious. Maybe made for a shirne? As for me it looks sweet "ugly" and interesting. 

[ROKUJURO]

Whether one likes it or not, it was made on purpose by the smith. He would have needed a good bright red heat, a suitable upper die, and the help of a strong DESHI. This technique might have been meant as decoration/HORIMONO, but has also some side effects as it would push the steel to the sides and longitudinally, allowing for a slightly longer and broader blade (in relation to the mass of steel).  

Who knows what his intentions were when he made it? 

[ChrisW]

Interesting! Honestly, maybe even the color of the rust is intentional and not even rust at all? Maybe a kind of lacquer as would be in the case of what is done to yari.

[Apercus]

I like it.

 

Shannon H

[Ken-Hawaii]

How would you polish anything like that? The lacquer may be there to prevent rust.

[Guido]

Well, Chris, maybe my reply was a bit harsher than I intended, but quite frankly, not by much; I was (and still am) irritated by some of the posts in this thread.

By saying "basic research" I meant of course exactly that, i.e. basic: looking at the papers, and looking up the smith. You wrote

 

  On 7/16/2020 at 7:46 AM, ChrisW said:

Can't say I can find records of this particular swordsmith and I am unable to read the daimyo papers. All I know is that the seller claims its from the Edo period. And it looks like a blindingly bright hadori polish on one side and lack of yokote on both.

 

This smith isn’t only listed in the "bible" of sword collectors, the nihontō meikan, but also in Hawley’s and Sesko’s (I’m sure in other standard books as well). Saying you couldn’t find records of this particular swordsmith makes me wonder where exactly you looked.

 

Btw, the sword Chris (Vajo) posted is signed by the same smith, and a few more by him can be found online, although not in the same tsukurikomi.

 

And yes, the seller "claims" it’s Edo period work - for a good reason, because the papers say so, even giving an exact time frame.

 

As for not having a yokote: I’ve never seen a hirazukuri/katakiriba combination blade in my 40 years of collecting that had a yokote; probably because there is no such thing.

 

The way your post was phrased seems to have the purpose of casting unwarranted doubt on the sword being legit; either that, or written without covering the aforementioned basics, to make my point again.

 

And then of course we have that bewildering post by Ken, who says his mentor judges it as modern, and the papers are therefore invalid; even that papers by the NBTHK are generally not reliable. Is that the same mentor who bought a mass-produced, cast, Jingo-esque iaitō-tsuba, and judged it as textbook Yagyū? I just hope his "elite" Sōshū sword collection was purchased with a sounder judgment than occasionally shown here …

 

Well, I’m obviously guilty of

, so I think I now should take a break from the NMB, and go back to eating $ 100.- sushi, and looking at my five figure swords.

[Brian]

I'm scared. Half of me wants to censor and berate Guido, and the other half wants to make him a moderator
Let's calm down folks, and also note that he is correct in much of what he said. We need to be careful how we phrase things.

[ChrisW]

If that's what you enjoy Guido, enjoy it. I'll enjoy the lack of personal criticism from some guy I wouldn't care to know at this juncture. I asked for information and understandings (and to share something I thought was very interesting); I didn't ask for someone with an axe to grind with the world. My default is to question things out of the ordinary and accept them once they're proven by fact.

 

I will admit my research skills using swordsmith indices are lacking, but that doesn't mean you have to act like a heel. I am new to this hobby by comparison. I find it sad when people wonder why this hobby is so niche and unpopular with younger generations. The answer is obvious to me.

 

Won't stop me from enjoying this hobby. They have the block function for a reason.

[Jacques]

Just to add that some should learn what's the real meaning of NBTHK Hozon origami... 

[Ken-Hawaii]

Guido, you've helped out my mentor & me on several of our  sword exhibitions, & we owe you for that. But, I have to say that sometimes you let your mouth run off, without a clue. This is one of them.

[Bazza]

Ahh, c’mon guys, go easy.  Guido is one of THE most knowledgeable people on this Board and we should be grateful he shares his time with us - I know I am.
 

Guido wrote:
> As for not having a yokote: I’ve never seen a hirazukuri/katakiriba combination blade
> in my 40 years of collecting that had a yokote; probably because there is no such thing.
 

Anyone who wants to cast a shadow over Guido better have (a) the best of intentions, and (b) sound research techniques!!  My response to Guido’s comment quoted above is merely that I have a shinogizukuri/katakiriba combination katana that has a yokote on the kiriha side.  This is not to naysay Guido, as mine is shinogizukuri and not hirazukuri, which is certainly not the same thing and I mention this here in case we can draw another insight from this thread.  Guido has commented on my sword in another thread:
http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/3100-katakiri-ba-blades/?hl=kiriha&do=findComment&comment=30332
and I’m shocked to see that was in 2008...

 

I apologise for the poor quality of the images, taken many years ago.  Reminds me that I should update them.

 

BTW, we don't see much comment from Guido, but when we do it is always a valuable learning lesson and I always look forward to it.  In fact, I know Guido is lurking in the background and I always, ALWAYS, hold my breath when I write something in case it is a heresy or shows poor reading of the sacred texts!!

 

I go now to my wife's excellent dinner and my hand-me-down bottle of Tasmanian pinot noir (from my local mechanic for my beer contribution to his workshop).  This is just the fag-end of the bottle as I gave it a hammering at last night's dinner.

 

BaZZa.