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A call to all Nihonto collectors for assistance

shan

By shan
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shan Rising Star

shan

Posted
Posted

Hi all,

I need help and i am truly sorry if I "open a can of worms"

I need to get as much information as possible on a Shinshinto smith working in the 1800`s called Echizen Ju Kanetsune

I have trawled the internet, but i cannot find any references other than that he existed and was a Jo saku smith.

I need to know of his styles specifics of hada and absolutly any Mei examples good or bad that may be around.

I would also like information on any smith working in Echizen around 1830 to 1890 and mei examples if possible to compare with as i think daimei is an option as well.

I hope you can help with this as i am up agaist a wall and i need to understand something.

regards

Shan

shan Rising Star

shan

Posted
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Hi Brian,

Thanks for the link but it’s the wrong period smith, sorry.

I have Googled the Name kanetsune and have no problem finding the Koto or Shinto Kanetsune and the Knife makers who are the present incarnation of the Kanetsune Mino tradition clan.

I am after the shinshinto Echizen seki kanetsune working in echizen around 1850-80 ish.I need oshigata of nakago and mei and description of works etc..

Franco and stephen.....

I have a fairly vast Nihonto library and it has many smiths’ works (many 1000`s) but not this particular one.

Going out and buying Nihonto books to increase my library will not necessarily help me to find this particular smith, unless you know which particular book this smith has a reasonably in depth mention in ,in which case please state the title.

Many thanks

Shan

shan Rising Star

shan

Posted
  • Author
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Hi Grey ,Jacques.

Yes, thats the one, but it is probably not right, hence the need to cross reference it.

I just wanted to be sure, as it was classed as Gimei because the smith put the long "tail" on the Tsune kanji.This was seen as a deliberate attempt to Copy the more well known Kanetsune working in the shinto period who did a long tail on his Tsune kanji as well, but in the 1600`s.

It was kantei to Echizen Seki 1880 and they are well known for Goma bashi and other Hi on tanto of this style.Just wanted to see the Echizen Ju Kanetsune or anyone who worked at that time in echizen,but he may not be very well known at all or may not even exist.

May also be a pointless exercise so if nothing comes to hand easily.........

Many thanks and regards

shan

Jacques Grand Master

Jacques

Posted
Posted

Hi,

 

It was kantei to Echizen Seki 1880 and they are well known for Goma bashi and other Hi on tanto of this style.Just wanted to see the Echizen Ju Kanetsune or anyone who worked at that time in echizen,but he may not be very well known at all or may not even exist.

 

 

At this time (after haitorei), swordsmiths are scarce :glee:

shan Rising Star

shan

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Hi Jacques,

Quote "At this time (after haitorei), swordsmiths are scarce"

 

Yes i know and that could either aid me or compound the situation even more.

It was Kantei to Echizen seki mid 1800`s (specifically 1880 but i have a hard time seeing how it can be pinned down to the exact year unless they had a smith in mind).I would look towards 1850 onwards really.Thing is the mounts are made for it and tight and not been corrected or adjusted to fit,so its a really strange pairing as they are apparently a little earlier.

regards

shan

 

 

 

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Guido Grand Master

Guido

Posted
Posted
Thing is the mounts are made for it and tight and not been corrected or adjusted to fit,so its a really strange pairing as they are apparently a little earlier.
Are we looking at the same pictures? I really don't know how to phrase this without appearing offensive, but this is one of the most dreadful assembly of junk pieces I've ever seen, barely a notch above Chinese fakes.
shan Rising Star

shan

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Hi Guido,

Never said they were in good condition or that they were of a fantastic quality.They may also have had some adjustments historically but if they did they were a long time ago.

The same has been added at a later stage IMHO to what was originally a plain Laquer saya.It was done so long ago that the same has been repaired because of shrinkage ,again a long time ago.

Everything else is i believe original.(but what do i Know)

The Nakago ana on the tsuba and the Tsuka fit near perfectly to the nakago and the mekugi ana lines up perfectly

the blade in the saya fits perfectly without any looseness.

the Habaki fits the Koiguchi perfectly and Koiguchi has not been reshaped or resized to accomodate it.

The Koiguchi and "tsuba" fit together and sadly have been cleaned but were iron and Zogan.

I felt that this was a blade that a poorer samurai may have had mounts for and imprved them as his fortunes dictated.

I doubt they lived in a "throw away" world then and may well have used the sam`e from a broken saya or similar recycling means.Not everyone could afford to buy a good blade and also great mounts.If it were me, the majority or the money would be on the blade as thats the useful bit in battle.

Thanks for your helpful comments everyone.

regards

shan

Brian Hancock Enthusiast

Brian Hancock

Posted
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Hi Again, Don't know if this is of use for you but if you have a look on "Ricecracker's" site he has a Kanetsune katana on there.The bit I am on about says that " The Kanetsune line later turned into the famous Owari Masatsugu line in the Shinto period" maybe of use to you. Cheers,Brian.

shan Rising Star

shan

Posted
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Thankyou Brian,

I had seen that and noted the change to Masatsugu.

It might lead me to the solution so i will see where that search leads.

Again thanks for the sugestion.

now i just have to track that line to echizen in 1860`s.

regards

Shan

Guido Grand Master

Guido

Posted
Posted

Since posting my above comment, I got a PM telling me my brutal tone wasn't proper, and an e-mail asking me why I still let this thread go on.

 

First of all, the blade was pink-slipped as Gimei and attributed to Echizen Seki; I think that's as good as it gets, there obviously was no Kanetsune working there - and the style of the Mei is a deliberate attempt at copying another smith anyhow - so Gimei it is. Gimei doesn't mean "unrecorded" or "hard to find info about", it's a clear statement. If the Mei is removed it probably will paper to Echizen Seki as Mumei (if the quality is found to be high enough for papering). It is what it is.

 

The Koshirae, however, is nothing to write home about or making stories up about mountings of poor Samurai. Maybe it originally was made for this Tantô, but now it's simply an eye-sore, from the "pregnant" Saya to the oversized, mixed Menuki: obviously it was altered, and not to its advantage. The fittings (minus the Menuki) could be used for a new Koshirae, but I would rather have a Shirasaya made.

 

But back to why I wrote what I did: Shan, since coming to this board (and the Tosogu Forum) you show a stubborn resistance to learn anything from the information and advise you get here. If you don't like, or don't agree, to what you're told here, what's the point of your dramatic "call to all collectors"?

Brian

Brian

Posted
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I have to agree with Guido 100%.

Folks, I am known to be diplomatic, but one thing my Japan trip has taught me is that to move forward we are going to have to get serious and sometines blunt. That means telling it like it is sometimes, so that we don't spend pages hinting at things that can be said simply.

I hope people will see it as constructive criticism and not personal. No bad things about the blade besides it being gimei, and that doesn't make it a bad blade. But the koshirae is bad and the news could be worse. We can learn from this, know what to look out for, and call it a lesson. Or take it personally and learn nothing. I would prefer the former, and it is how we should be heading in our studies. Trying to prove the shinsa panel wrong is also not going to lead anywhere. They have years more experience than us, and all the books to fall back on. Gimei isn't the worst thing in the world. Koshirae can be improved or changed. Still a nice blade, just not good fittings at all.

Let's take advice to heart and not see everything as a personal attack when it is merely intended to hammer an obvious point home.

 

Brian

shan Rising Star

shan

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Hi Guido ,Brian,

I am sure it is correct that the item is Gimei, I wanted to be sure before i sold the blade as the shinsa have got Kantei wrong before in both NTHK and NBTHK and Honnami.

We have all heard of blades failing one year and passing the next time.

I was told that a smith working in the 1850-60`s called Kanetsune was working in Echizen hence the request for infomation.The name, school and date were close enough to be a possibility, would you not check as well if it were that close? or would you just leave it as found by the panel?

I did Google echizen Ju Kanetsune and get a hit, so there may be some truth to the information supplied but thats all i get.

 

All opinions are based on another opinion or experience and as such can be subjective so do not necessary mean that it is correct. If the initial information was in error, then every attribution from that stage tht is passed on may be wrong.

Yes the shinsa are very learned Gentlemen and yes they are probably 99.9% right in what they say, but how do we know that the book or information they are referring to is correct? The answer is we don’t and nor do they, it’s a guide.

Some sword appraisers from the period are now being questioned as to the correctness of there Kantei,this in turn questions all other Kantei based on there written findings.

 

I cannot find anything on a school working in Echizen Seki in 1880 which was why i requested the help.

If i could track down a smith from that timeframe and school i could compare the work and that would help me.I did this with the other 2 items and they are “spot on” so now I have confirmed a finding and learnt something from it.

 

Absolutely Everything i have been told on this forum has been absorbed and utilized and yes sometimes your replies are harsh and sometimes are completely irrelevant to the topic and sometimes it all makes sense and i can see the reasoning behind the findings.

This is not about denial, so much as about Confirmation of someone’s findings.

Once i am happy that the item is as suggested and i have done everything within my power to confirm this, I can move on from it. (did you not whilst learning ever ask “why” or “How”?)

 

I mean no disrespect to anyone at all i am just trying to see something that eludes me at the moment.

I cannot see those "magic pictures" that used to be popular either (you know the ones where you had to stare at them until an image appeared from out of the patterns),So you could say i cannot see what is right in front of my face.

Maybe i just have the wrong attitude for this forum and i should just take what is said as Verbatim.

Since joining this forum i have managed to just about Pi$$ off everyone at some point or another and for that i am sorry, I am just trying to understand.

I do appreciate your help and assistance and just because i might question or offer alternatives does not mean that i dont agree with you, I am just exploring possible alternatives.

Specifically, Yes the mounts were in your opinion "nasty" and you are right they aren’t great but the point was not about the mounts quality but about there style.

If what you were saying was, “Shan those mounts are not that old or nice and quite likely they were made up after haitorei ,to sell a reasonable blade to tourists", then that, I could understand and learn from.

Lets Close this Post Please and i will ask no more questions and again i am sorry to "rub (another learned gentleman) up the wrong way"

 

Kindest regards

Shan

shan Rising Star

shan

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Hi Rich,

Ah sorry,another Offended Forum.I had noticed i was being ignored on Tosogu forum.

I`m Very Sorry.

I will of course stop using your forum and go buy some books as you sugest.

My "Swords and sword furniture in the museum of fine arts boston" book is a bit pointless,its all lovely stuff but beyond anything i will ever come across so does not help much at all.

 

thanks for all you help in the past with the tsuba.

regards

Shan

Bungo Veteran

Bungo

Posted
Posted

hey, just chill....... lot's of ego higher than Mt. Fuji here.

I have quite a few messages " edited/consored/yanked " and even ONE BIG FAT warning from " you know who " :rotfl: :rotfl: :rant: :rant:

but in the end, just go with the flow, learn to write/speak like a senator ( i.e. covers all possible angles /ars$# ) and enjoy the " benefits of the Senate ".

 

Don't be dogmatic or else one may look like a dog a few years down the road when NEW knowledge comes to light.

 

peace.............

p.s. hey, may be the Army should send me to Iraq. :glee: :glee:

 

milt

kusunokimasahige Grand Master

kusunokimasahige

Posted
Posted

On your PS:

 

Is the US army in that bad of a shape that they need you to file teeth in order to support the war effort due to the lack of ammo ?

 

@ Shan, take it easy, compared to other fora out there this is by far the most friendly forum there is to ask your questions, however newbie they might be, and you will get an honest opinion.

 

KM

Bungo Veteran

Bungo

Posted
Posted

" Is the US army in that bad of a shape that they need you "

 

the BEST in the world ( but can't say the same about our Air Force :doubt: )

Where I am going next year, the Brigade motto is " fight tonight ".

 

Take that !!

 

 

Milt

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

Posted
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Just to add my two cents' worth here. Most of what Shan says makes sense and I have enjoyed reading the thread, but the original title got straight up my nose as soon as I opened up and saw the contents of the request. An irritating letdown. I have just kept quiet since then as it didn't seem to have bothered anyone else too much.

 

Lots of people want help on here, but your title made it seem like you were in some kind of emergency, overriding everyone else's needs. Until now people have been fairly quiet and well-mannered in their titles. Now do we all have to exaggerate in the title in order to get people's attention?

 

No offense intended, but just to point out that sometimes we can get off on the wrong foot without even realizing it. 8)

Bungo Veteran

Bungo

Posted
Posted

the thread topic does sound like an urgent call come to think of it, otherwise there's nothing really " bad " in all the messages .

Sword looks ok and i can see shan's point .

The koshirae does sort of sucks especially the oversized mis-match menuki.

 

so.............. let's have a few :beer: :beer: :beer: and i begin to fall in love with you all AGAIN already.....

 

 

milt

Guido Grand Master

Guido

Posted
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so.............. let's have a few :beer: :beer: :beer: and i begin to fall in love with you all AGAIN already.....
You just eloquently made - yet again - the point that it's never too late to have a happy childhood. :glee:
Brian

Brian

Posted
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The koshirae doesn`t look slightly bad, it is horrible. Not even assembled that way in the Meiji period for tourist trade. Those are usually quite fancy to attract buyers. This one has all the marks of a home-assembled job at some time in the past by an amateur. Nothing about it is right or good. That being said, subject closed on those.

The blade still has merits.

I won't go into questioning the shinsa panel judgements.　Yes they have　made mistakes before, and likely will again, but the % is tiny and this forum is not going to attempt to better their vast knowledge. In this game,　they are the experts and their opinion counts. They don't rely on one book, they have ALL the books plus many years worth of experience. No point trying to stumble on something they forgot about. Nothing wrong with doing your own research, just don't expect to come up with much.

This wasn't a call for you to stop asking Shan, just a reminder to listen to advice and don't sell your books. I haven't bought many fittings on this trip to Japan, but I have had to buy another suitcase just for the books :shock:

Some I may never use, but you never know when you will come across something you didn't expect to. And studying better items than you own is the secret anyways. Not studying what you can afford to buy.

No-one should take criticism too harshly. I have offended many myself, but if you read the advice and learn from it, you can continue with some knowledge.

You do have some nice items. Better to discuss those than all of us continually debating the merits (or lack thereof) of low class stuff beyond identification and basic info. This goes for all items. It's always nicer to drool over good work than point out the faults with bad work.

I have quite a few messages " edited/consored/yanked " and even ONE BIG FAT warning from " you know who "

Yeah...but don't count on me to save you from the next one. :badgrin:

NO more off topic "news" posts, even when there is a 1% relevancy to Japanese art. The next one gets yanked along with your hand/head. ;)

 

Brian

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