Older nakago welded on a newer blade - how to recognise it?

[Marius]

Dear All,

 

I have another thread running in this section, "Yamashiro? o-suriage", in which Darcy has raised some doubts concerning the authenticity of the nakago of a sword I have bought recently (thanks Darcy, great educational stuff for me) :-)

 

I have this sword now and I am ready to examine it closely, also with a magnifying glass. I thought I might open a new thread as this is about a sword flaw everyone of us can encounter and not just about my particular sword.

 

What are the hints to look for to recognise that the nakago has been welded onto the blade? I know only that due to the heat of the welding the hamon at the hamachi should disappear, so if there is a hamon and the nakago has indeed been welded to the blade, the hamon has been faked by a polisher (this should be easy to see upon closer examination). This is all I know, however, so your advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks for your help :-)

[Mark Green]

Hi Sword Bro,

Here is my take on your new sword. I think the nakago has been aged. I feel your sword may be as new as pre ww2, or even ww2 era. I think that the back hole was just that, an extra Mekugi ana, that you see on many ww2 era blades.

I think someone sat this nakago in a bucket of salt water, and tea, and waited until it looked good enough to try to fool someone into thinking it was shinto or older.

Did you ask the seller what his advisors had thought about it?

I see no Hada, and I can't tell if there is any turnback in the Boshi.

I do not think it has been welded. I think that would be very unlikely.

I have see this type of work on more than a few Nakago. Mostly on newer swords that have a good 'old' look to them.

I could be all wrong about this, not having the sword in hand. But, from the pics I saw, that would be my guess.

These aged nakago usualy have large 'pits' the file marks are not to be found, and the color is just 'not right'.

I would ask the seller what he thought about it. Even if he knows, the same things I do, he may not admit it, as sword selling is about money for him. But, if you get the sword in hand, and my guess seems to be the case. I would ask him none the less. Then you could know better what he is about.

Mark G

[Marius]

Hi Sword Bro,

I feel your sword may be as new as pre ww2, or even ww2 era. I think that the back hole was just that, an extra Mekugi ana, that you see on many ww2 era blades.

 

I see no Hada, and I can't tell if there is any turnback in the Boshi.

 

Mark,

 

thanks a bunch for having taken the time to look at this mystery. We'd probably better move the discussion into the right thread, but since nobody answered my question about the recognition of a welded nakago, we might as well carry on here, with Brian's kind permission

 

You might be right with the nakago, but I strongly disagree with you on the hada. It is certainly not muji, it is a fine nashiji-like hada. This has been noticed by others as well, they agree, that, were not for the nakago, it might look like a Hizen sword.

 

There is a very small turnback in the boshi and the hamon is a well executed suguha, nioi deki. Tight noiguchi.

[Mark Green]

That is great news about the Hada. I thought from the pics that it may be serface staining or rust starting up, giving it that look.

Don't get me wrong, I think your sword is very good looking. I have a Hizen Yoshitsugu with the konuka hada, and nice fat Nioideki saguha. It looks very much like your sword.

That may be the reason someone has 'worked' on this nakago to make it look much older.

If that is the case!!!

I have seen a few Yasakuni swords that look very much like yours.

Whenever I see a Nakago like this, My first question is WHY. Most times, I feel it is due to some person looking to turn a fast buck by making a good looking 'new' sword look 'old', to those that may not know any better.

This is an easy thing to do in our hobby. Just look at how many $39. chinese swords you see sell for $400. every day on ebay.

You got a "REAL" sword no doubt. I do feel that it was made to look older than it is.

But this is jmho. Based on the pics I have seen.

If there is one thing I have learned about this hobby, it is you never can tell where the jems will come from.

I got the above Yoshitsugu from a U-sell-it ebay store for about $160 us. It was a mess. But it is all better now, and so sweet.

Have fun with your sword, it looks good to me.

Mark G

[Marius]

Mark,

 

thanks for coming back. I am never cross because someone expresses his/her opinion, that would be stupid and I would miss an opportunity to learn. So if you think that a sword of mine is low quality or even rubbish, do not hesitate telling me so. I can bear making mistakes, as long as I learn form them. Besides, my swords are rather low or medium quality, as I cannot afford buying Juyo quality.

 

Coming back to the sword - it seems then that it might well be a Hizento with a nakago made to look older. I really must take some close up pictures and post them here. The mekugi ana at the bottom of the nakago seems to ba a fake then. This sword has most likely never been shortened, just made to look so.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Mariusz, About your original question. I have been pondering this. I haven't experienced a welded nakago other than pics of some. It seems only bad jobs would be evident to us. I am involved in welding due to my work and I can attest that good work would be invisible after finishing and patina applied by an expert. Copper block vises would prevent heat transfer and the biggest threat would be mizukage. Blocks and wet rags should prevent it though. I had a sword, shinshinto aged to mimic kamakura age and was fooled. It took a pro to wise me up. So, really well done would be impossible to suss out. John

[Marius]

I can attest that good work would be invisible after finishing and patina applied by an expert. Copper block vises would prevent heat transfer and the biggest threat would be mizukage. Blocks and wet rags should prevent it though. I had a sword, shinshinto aged to mimic kamakura age and was fooled. It took a pro to wise me up. So, really well done would be impossible to suss out. John

 

John,

 

many thanks for this valuable input. Interesting to hear about the blocks and wet rags preventing heat transfer. In other words, I may indeed have bought a sword with a nakago welded onto the blade. Any way of testing it? Tomography, X-rays or something?

 

Another question: to weld and apply patina professionally would undoubtedly cost some money, making the operation rather pointless on a $1.5k blade (just trying to console myself :? ) Of course it is always possible that somebody has failed to sell this sword, because the abnormity of the nakago was so evedent, then the sword was sold cheaply to the dealer, who without inspecting it further, sold it to me at a profit... Just trying to figure out what I really have here...

[paulb]

Hi Mariusz

I am working from memory having not relooked at the pics posted but I think you may be worrying unnecessarily. From what I remember of the blade it had reasonable shape and good hada. There could be many explanations for the anomoly in the shape of the nakago without going to the extreme of a welding job. I also doubt anyone would try and artificially age a Hizen blade. Hizen swords have alays been highly regarded so there would be little commercial value in disfiguring the nakago to make it look like a koto piece.

Form what I saw of the sword I think for $1500 you did ok and you should continue to enjoy the blade.

regards

Paul

[Henry Wilson]

Are there any pictures?

[Marius]

Are there any pictures?

 

Hi Henry,

here they are:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0295904038

[Marius]

Are there any pictures?

 

Hi Henry,

here they are:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0295904038

 

Oh, just in case they disappear from eBay, attached they come...

 

 

 

 

[Stephen]

sorry for the late reply, here is a what a few sperts from Japan thought might be a koto nakago on a shinshinto or gendaito, ill try for a better pix but where it was joined is very hard to tell.

[Mark Green]

Mariuszk,

I'm right there with you on the sword holdings. Allthough I have a few "gems", I have never paid more than 2000$ for a sword. I do know some polishers though, that helps.

Now that I have blown up your pics, I still feel that your Nakago has been made to look older than the sword is. WHY???? Who knows, likely for money reasons. I have personaly seen more than a few 'newer' swords that have been cut down, then polished down thin, and the Nakago aged, so as to look Koto to those that don't know any better, and sometimes to those that should know better. A sensei told me it was called "suriaged", he had seen it a lot.

I don't feel the hole in the back of your sword was fake. I think it may have been a 2nd hole, these are not uncommon in late period blades. It just made it easy for the fakers, or was simply cut off to put it in new mounts.

I was told once that it became common practice with the 'gun slinger' Samurai of the Edo period. Just in case one of your Mekugi failed, your sword wouldn't come flying out of the handle. Made sense to me. Also common in ww2 era swords, for the same reason.

I think for the price, you got a great sword. The boshi is good, and it has no flaws that I could see in the pics, and the polish is not that far off. Just enjoy it for what it is. That is what this obsession is all about.

Mark G

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

"suriaged"

 

Have to add this one to my glossary... :lol:

[Ed Harbulak]

I think we sometimes get overly concerned about the degree of rust on the nakago of a sword and if it was artifically produced or natural. I have a signed WWII gendaito made by Nobufusa that I was sure was a shinto era blade when I bought it a few years ago at a gun show. The nakago was so rusted that the mei was very difficult to read. The rest of the blade looked normal enough, with the usual staining and light rust often found on WWII era blades. I bought the sword thinking it was an older shinto blade in WWII mounts and was surprised to discover once I was able to read the mei that it was indeed a gendai with so much rust on the nakago that it looked far older than it was. Yet, I know who brough the sword back from the war and that all he did with it was hang it on his wall for display. I concluded that either the nakago had accidentally gotten wet in salt water and was never dried while the blade itself had been dried and or oiled, or the nakago had been handled by someone with sweaty hands that over the years caused an excessive amount of rusting. The sword itself had been surrendered on Okinawa at the end of the war and that's when and where the vet (US Army Air Force) received it. The moral of the story is that the degree of rust on a nakago can be very misleading and we should not try to read more into it than is really there. Not every rusty nakago is rusty because it was faked in order to make it look older. Sometimes rust just happens for any number or normal reasons. We all like pristine blades and nakagos, but the nakago was meant to eventurally get rusty. Sometimes the rust just forms faster than we would expect. Judge the blade, not the rust.

 

As for welded tangs on blades, there is an extensive discussion on the subject in the back of the book, "The Japanese Sword", by Kanzan Sato. Read, read and read some more and try to remember what you read and learn from it.

Ed Harbulak

[Marius]

Mark, Ed,

 

many thanks for your comments. I shall read Kanzan Sato's information on welded nakago. I have taken some close ups of the boshi and the hada and hamon. It looks like the boshi is yakizume and the nioi deki hamon has a tight nioiguchi (at leat to me). Hada is nashiji-like. Might be a Hizen sword, were not for the yakizume. Still a puzzle, isn't it?

 

thanks again :-)

 

 

 

 

[Grey Doffin]

To answer the original question: what does a welded on nakago look like? Sometimes it is tricky to spot the repair; you have to look close. With careful examination of the attached picture you should be able to see where the weld was done.

Grey

[Brian]

Is that a little of Pete Klein's and Guido's sense of humour slipping in there Grey? :lol:

 

Brian

[Ted Tenold]

I *think* I can juust make it out.

 

As a guy that was trained and worked in welding/brazing for a few years I gotta say that whoever did that weld was absolutely attrocious. Jeez, I hope they're not putting ships or buildings together.

[dkirkpatrick]

Nice weld indeed! Something that makes me wonder if perhaps the point is moot with regard to the Yamashiro sword is that it would appear to me that the hamon rounds off the nakago past the hamachi making me wonder if the blade is perhaps saiba. That and the nioiguchi seems to be unusually thin and "lifeless". A fire might explain the some of the nakago distortion. I considered that maybe the blade wasn't o-suriage but only slightly suriage with multiple ana but at 66cm it would seem unlikely for the purported jidai. Perhaps a better pic of the hamachi might clarify this (not so close this time! :D )Just my musings!

 

Doug