Need help identifying tanto

[0Takeda0]

I'm still getting use to using this message board, so I apologise if I do anything wrong.

I am also fairly new to the nihonto community, so I don't know very much.

 

I bought this tanto online, and I am wanting help identifying it, or determining how valuable it is. The seller claimed it was edo era. It is very short and thin. It is mumei, but looks like there may have been some kind of markings at one point. I didn't spend too much on it, as it was in really bad shape. I received it with the tip broken off completely, with several chips.

 

As far as the koshirae goes, the saya

was in ok shape. The habaki was cracked and scratched from what looks like someone removing the handle recklessly. The tsuka had been repaired before, and had since been eaten by termites. The stingray skin wrap was put on backwards. The kashira was missing, and the fuchi was carved out of the handle to look like horn, but is all really one solid piece.

 

Given the state of the knife, I felt comfortable giving it a little bit of polishing, just enough to see what I think is the hamon. I can only really see what I think is the hamon on the ura side, but I'm not wanting to remove too much material, in case it is worth sending to a polisher. I cleaned up the tip and re-shaped it.

 

Any help would be appreciated

[0Takeda0]

Saya And blade

[16k]

My friend, whatever it was, I’m afraid it is too far gone...

[ChrisW]

I agree with JP here. Whatever style of kissaki it had, is no longer discernible. But maybe it was made for flower/bonsai cutting? Its hard to say.

[0Takeda0]

This is what it looked like before I cleaned it up.

 

 

Edit: I can't imagine what it was being used for which would have caused it to get this trashed. I'm not sure what it was originally made for

[ChrisW]

Looks like you did some grinding on it to have rounded out the metal. This is normally an absolute DO NOT DO on anything that has even a remote chance of being saved or appreciated for what it is. This tanto, however, is clearly very dead and unlikely to have offered anything up to appreciate long-term. We have care guides in the information section you should check out! Lots to learn and read and see there.

 

Normally, doing anything to mess with the blade beyond a soap and water treatment will get you the stink-eye from the nihonto community. We are conservators at heart, we leave the restoration to the professionals. But its safe to say this tanto is dead and buried so its not a huge loss.

[16k]

I agree with JP here. Whatever style of kissaki it had, is no longer discernible. But maybe it was made for flower/bonsai cutting? Its hard to say.

That was actually my first thought, and that last picture seems to confirm it. It one of those Bonsai blade often mistakenly called a head cutter.

 

Unless it was a genuine tanto whose entire kissaki got broken. Whatever, it’s dead.

[ChrisW]

I thought that too until I saw the before picture. It was a normal tanto but the kissaki has been snapped off entirely, so this blade is unfortunately dead. It can still be appreciated as a "relic piece" which is to say its beyond restoration but exists as an example of the extremes a blade can go through.

[16k]

What puzzles me is the nakago. It looks crude and thin for a tanto.

[0Takeda0]

I knew the risk of polishing it, but given the state, assumed no polisher would take it, even if it was an otherwise valuable blade. I wouldn't dare take restoration of a reasonably saveable nihonto into my own hands. This one reminds me of those ww1 era tourist daggers, especially with the proportions and nakago... But I'm not completely sure

[16k]

Is it just a shadow or the mouth of the tsuka is larger than the nakago? Though in poor condition, the koshirae must have been a good one. On the contrary, the blade looks all kind of wrong and I wonder if it is original to the koshirae.

[0Takeda0]

Both the saya and tsuka fit the blade perfectly, but I think it had a tsuba at one point. This blade is all kinds of backwards. Nothing about it makes sense to me...

[0Takeda0]

Does anyone have any guesses about the hamon?

[16k]

Can’t be seen on your pictures.

[0Takeda0]

Yeah... I can barely see it in person. I will provide more blade and handle pics in a bit.

[0Takeda0]

The first two photos show the hamon on the ura side a little better.

 

The other pictures show the cross section of where the kissaki was broken, before it was made into a satsumaage kissaki.

 

The other two photos show the termite eaten handle, inside and out. The tsuka had been taken apart glued and back together at some point. Note the writing in the tsuka. The saya, which is still in relatively good shape, also has writing inside of it.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Some type of midare hamon, but it's dead & gone, as others have told you. In future, do not do anything to a blade that you post on NMB, other than gently oiling it!

[0Takeda0]

Understood. How else could it have been handled? Was there any chance of saving it in the first place?

 

Thanks

[Katsujinken]

Was there any chance of saving it in the first place?

 

Thanks

No.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Agreed. It was a lost cause, to start with.

[16k]

Understood. How else could it have been handled? Was there any chance of saving it in the first place?

 

Thanks

No, unfortunately. Since the tip was broken, so was the tempered part of the Hamon. With it lost, the blade looses its integrity and makes it useless. It’s a fatal flaw carried to the extreme.

[Dave R]

 This is when a blade would have been reground in what can be called "Satsuma age" Link to the original site here.....   http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html

 

Diagram and a pic of one in real life below. 

 

 

[16k]

This could indeed work, Dave.

[0Takeda0]

That's what I had mentioned. I had started the process of making a satsumaage kissaki myself, but didn't want to take off too much material. Just enough to see if it was worth going all the way to have a professional handle it.

 

Not that it would of matter much. Generally, the consensus around most satsumaage blades is they are not able to be appreciated as actual nihonto, with the exception of higher quality examples or ones from famous smiths. (so, about the same in terms of value as showato).

 

Great diagram, by the way

[0Takeda0]

Regardless of how, and if the blade should be repaired, what does the hamon say about it? Even if just for the sake of knowing, I'm interested in learning be about when this blade was made. The hamon at the ha machi was hard for me to see.

 

I did my best to meticulously trace the hamon, it's not perfect. The blade's tip broke just above where the fukura begins ( I think it probably had an o kissaki originally), meaning almost all of the original hamon is intact, except the boshi.

 

 

I know it's not much to work with but I'm happy to hear anyone's thoughts on it.

[AntiquarianCat]

Hi Darius, at risk of giving you bad advice (since I’m a total neophyte), what’s helped me visualize the hamon best is holding the blade towards a lamp above it. It should make the habuchi visible which I’ve found helpful since acids and maybe polishing mean the whitened edge doesn’t always line up with the habuchi.

Again, I’m a rookie when it comes to this stuff and maybe you can’t visualize the habuchi in a blade this beat up, or maybe I’m completely wrong, but it helps me a bit and might be worth a try. It would at least be quick and easy to do with a small, lightweight blade.

[0Takeda0]

Very true, I wouldn't have been able to see the hamon at all if it weren't for having a light directly above.

 

Reflecting on my drawing, the hamon on the actual blade seems to be closer to the edge than on my drawing. Let me see if I can get a few better pics. I'll probably have to clean the blade's surface up some more with powder

[16k]

The yakidashi would point towards Shinto I guess.

[Surfson]

It might also be a kubikiri or nata.  There is a thread on this here:

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23725-kubikiri-korner/

[0Takeda0]

It might also be a kubikiri or nata.  There is a thread on this here:

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23725-kubikiri-korner/

The kissaki was snapped off. I showed pictures of the condition I got it in, and the break. Because I was unsure of it's value, and most of the people I've asked had assumed it was trash anyway, I took it upon myself to clean it up a little and start the satsumaage re-shaping process anyway. I figure I can't do any more damage than has already done. So far most people here have said about the same thing, that it is probably not worth trying to save, but if that is in fact the case, there is no harm in my cleaning it up myself to find out for certain.

 

If it is worth sending to a polisher of any kind, then that's what I'll do, but I can't know until I indentify that it is at least a traditionally made blade.

 

When I got it, I assumed there was a chance it was like one of those low-quality ww1 era tanto, i have attached an example of what I mean.