Standardising the posts for "Sales" items

[The Snowflake]

I would like to recommend that the NMB come up with a very standardized format for listing sales items so there is no bias and no selective discrepancy when posing items for sale? Is that out of this world irrational? 

[robinalexander]

Dear Shinken28,

 

Getting back to your original post.

 

If you have a concern or suggested improvement and you would like people to consider your views, it would be appropriate (and necessary) to clearly state...

 

1. what your specific concern is,

2. why you feel that way

3. Provide clear examples

4. What specific outcome you are hoping to achieve

 

People will then be in a better position to understand where you are coming from (as a newbie I have no idea what your talking about). All you seem to have done with your original post is 'sow a seed' and, understandably it has not been well received.

 

Please, if you believe your concerns are genuine and well founded, then put a little effort into explaining as per points above, or alternatively, just give it a miss.

 

Regards

Rob

[mas4t0]

I think I understand his issue.

 

I think the criticism is that there are listings from time to time that omit important information, and may (intentionally or otherwise) mislead a buyer.

 

I personally don't see an issue, as generally the community will ask the relevant questions, but I can understand how a new collector without much study or guidance may not know the right questions to ask.

 

This could maybe be helped a little by a checklist of required information.

[PNSSHOGUN]

If someone is getting "burned" on multiple purchases then they need to educate themselves further. While bad dealers are usually quickly identified there is still very little stopping them parting another fool with their money.

[Brian]

Putting all the other issues around this aside for now, and having removed all the posts that evolved into insults and slander...there is merit to the idea.
I don't think anyone can argue that sales should follow some sort of a pattern to protect buyers and sellers.
These would include pics of all relevant parts, measurements (vital in any case) and other relevant questions should be answered.
I think it would be a good thing to have some sort of requirement when listing for sale. I'll work with a few regular sellers and come up with a form of guideline, it can only benefit us all.

[The Snowflake]

And you will make your first mistake working with sellers. Work with knowledgeable collectors who do not sell here please Brian. 

 

Pictures should be of a standard format and quality. Sugata should be highlighted first, this is the way all Nihonto collectors are taught to see a sword, sugata first. Then there should be an emphasis on the critical areas, then if there are any issues they should be shown in real light pictures without doctoring. If there are no papers or the sword is unverified it should first be mandatory to post it on the general section so an open discussion can take place before it is moved to sale (this should be there to protect the seller also, if there is an unverified sword, the seller could be holding a great piece and not even know it, they should be allowed to get information, if they are holding junk, why waste time listing it) 

 

Measurements are a must

 

If there is a mei and papers then these should be translated by a good source of the western community (yes, pay for your translations, support those that share knowledge) and it should be mandatory as the papers, sayagaki and mei are integral elements of the value of this sword, not the paper, the information on the paper.

 

Any past information pertaining to the sword should also be mentioned 

 

This is not rocket science. In fact the forum should also benefit directly from sales conducted here.  I have no idea why there is not an ecommerce section where listings are done as any other dealer and sellers list properly and sales go through wallets in the forum with holding periods of 2 weeks, but that is up to Brian and that is a lot of work and seeing as how he gets zero help, that is a big ask

[The Snowflake]

And you keep hiding the posts here in the Izakaya but there are other social avenues to make sure you are all accountable and I will be watching

[Brian]

Not hiding them, just keeping them where the people involved can see them, and without disrupting the other sections.
I would assume anyone affected would be able to see them there. If not, I don't mind moving them elsewhere, but let's see where they go first.
In principle, I agree with much of what you post about a sales section. A lot of what you describe is do-able easily with the new forum software I am busy with and the server move where we will have the resources and everything is likely to change for the better. It's imminent.

[PietroParis]

Brian, will you clarify to us mere mortals who this mysterious new member is, and what is your relationship with him? Even in a forum as lightly moderated as this one, a newcomer who introduces himself by trampling on the forum rules and disrupting an existing thread, then moves on to start a new thread full of personal insults and name-calling, would normally be dealt with in a very different way. In contrast, your treatment of this person has been little short of deferential. As a beginner who knows next to nothing about Tosogu and Nihonto I should probably mind my own business, but I am intrigued by the dynamics at play here...

[The Snowflake]

I prefer to not have my full name mentioned. My first name is Ray, last name Snowflake

[PietroParis]

I suppose you must be some kind of big shot in the Nihonto community, to feel entitled to come here, s**t all over the place, dictate to Brian how he should run the forum, and threaten reprisals if things don't go your way. Being as I write above a beginner in the Nihonto community, I've never heard before of a Ray somebody. To my eyes, you are defined by the behavior you displayed in the last two days. No big deal anyway, I'm sure you won't lose sleep about it.

[Brian]

More info in the Izakaya thread.

[Rodenbacher]

Please let us come back to the main topic! I think we should ban comments on sales topics that only serve to push a sale. Ray's main concern is that there are some networks of people here on the board who try to push each other's offers with comments like "What a nice sword, I wish I had the money" or "What a big deal, anyone should grab that fast" and so on. These comments are very obviously only friendship services, they are always made by the same members - and they are really annoying. I really want them to be banned from the board. It's obvious that there are a lot of fine Swords and Tosogu are offered here which never get comments like that, because the seller has no friends who push him. In my opinion that's misleading buyers in a very serious way. Please, Brian, ban comments like that in the future! They are empty, without serious information, so we should avoid them in the future.

 

I don't like the way how Ray is insulting people here, but I think it's necessary to speak out a truth that's obvious.

[16k]

Peter, I am one of those and have never done it out of friendship or anything but because I genuinely like what I see and lament that I can’t buy them. Now if some people feel feel those comments are misleading or undeserved, I’ll abstain from posting them anymore from now on. Still I feel it’s a shame that we are not authorized to comment on what we like. You say that some Tosogu or other swords don’t get those nice comments. Well, I have almost zero interest in Tosogu, so obviously won’t comment on them. And if I don’t comment on some swords, it’s not because the person isn’t one of my friends or because the sword has no quality, but because it isn’t the kind I like, period.

 

If the 'no comment' in sales has to become the rule, so be it, but I think it’s sad what been happening since yesterday. Also, you can’t deny that some sales are pretty good deals.

 

One more thing, not addressed to you Peter, but a general observation. This whole mess seems to reveal that some people here resent others. I apologize if I belong to that list of resented people. I came here to learn and because there are like minded fellows that I respect and admire for their knowledge. I have long hesitated joining this board and have lurked for about 10 years because, obviously, what could I bring to this board. If some feel my presence is unwanted, I’ll feel sorry but I have long been a lurker and can go back to being one if it makes others feel better. If my departure can make the forum better, I can leave for the good of all.

[Rodenbacher]

That's not the point, don't take it personally. I just think that it doesn't make sense to add a personal opinion in a SALES thread. Maybe you don't misuse that (I even don't know what you are posting here) but others do obviously, so it should be banned in general to avoid misuse.

[16k]

Don’t worry Peter, I know it isn’t personal, but this... episode... has made me conscious that my (useless) presence (and that of many other newbies) could irritate some people. Someone mentioned in another thread, a few months back that the more knowledgeable people had left and obviously, I’m among those who are new and I’ll admit to my knowledge being limited. Perhaps this board should select their members and leave out those unworthy. It would sadden me, but I can understand that scholars may just want to be among scholars and be annoyed by the insignificant flies buzzing around them. Once again, this is the reason why I’ve been waiting for so long before registering, the feeling of "not belonging".

[kolhoznik]

I for one have found the comments of collectors who are more experienced than myself to be helpful. It helps me to train my eye to see what is good about a sword. Also the comments have helps with understanding pricing in the nihonto market.

[The Snowflake]

Don’t worry Peter, I know it isn’t personal, but this... episode... has made me conscious that my (useless) presence (and that of many other newbies) could irritate some people. Someone mentioned in another thread, a few months back that the more knowledgeable people had left and obviously, I’m among those who is new and I’ll admit to my knowledge being limited. Perhaps this board should select their members and leave out those unworthy. It would sadden me, but I can understand that scholars may just want to be among scholars and be annoyed by the insignificant flies buzzing around them. Once again, this is the reason why I’ve waiting for so long before registering, the feeling of "not belonging".

 

Did you read everything I sent you many years ago?

[Brian]

Don’t worry Peter, I know it isn’t personal, but this... episode... has made me conscious that my (useless) presence (and that of many other newbies) could irritate some people. Someone mentioned in another thread, a few months back that the more knowledgeable people had left and obviously, I’m among those who is new and I’ll admit to my knowledge being limited. Perhaps this board should select their members and leave out those unworthy. It would sadden me, but I can understand that scholars may just want to be among scholars and be annoyed by the insignificant flies buzzing around them. Once again, this is the reason why I’ve waiting for so long before registering, the feeling of "not belonging".

 

That is not an option and never will be. All are welcome. Those highly advanced collectors we waffle about sometime have enough money to travel to Japan when they want to study. They gather in groups, eat $100 sushi and moan about the lack of new blood in this field of collecting. They would never bother to participate on forums like this. Either it is beneath them, or they see no benefit to themselves.

We are very lucky to have the people we do, and those that stick it out...some will be the future of Nihonto collecting.

 

[16k]

Of course I did!

 

But then I’ve read many other things too, and some contradict themselves. For example, one source will call something Mokume Hada while another will speak about itame. In the end, I think that the only thing to really progress would be to see the swords in hand and have a mentor show me. Sadly, taking care of two handicapped parents prevents me from travellling, so I’m stuck with books, photos and my own deductions. When I came here, I had hit a knowledge wall.

 

Here, I’ve found out many things. First, that some swords were really underrated, like WW2 swords. A whole new world has opened to me. I make mistakes but now I can usually place a sword in its era and sometimes school. It may look like an easy thing for you but you can’t imagine how happy I was when I discovered that. But yes, now I’m hitting a new wall that only factual experience could break. To you, my progress may seem like a small step. It was a giant leap for me.

 

The next step is yet to happen. I’m like a toddler learning to walk. Sometimes, people come here with less knowledge, and I try to return the favor this great site has accomplished for me. Of course, I always add the caveat that I’m no expert and more knowledgeable people will confirm, infirm and further my help. I’m genuinely trying, but it’s a rocky road.

[David Flynn]

Here I will agree with JP.  One really needs to see many many swords.  I've been collecting for nigh on 30yrs and have had the good fortune of seeing many many swords. Finding a genuine mentor is hard.  I was ripped off a couple of times in the beginning, though I didn't realise as such untill my knowledge caught up.  My mistake ( and most newbies)  is trust.  Unfortunately, there are too many "Collectors",  who are only really concerned with their own acquirements but feign care for their "Protege".  

[mas4t0]

I feel like the comments regarding covert networks pushing each others items is a serious allegation and it's seemingly being made without any real data or research. There's too many conspiracy theories on the off topic as is, without creating new ones about other forum members.

 

It wouldn't take me long to go though the sale threads over a certain time period and do a factor analysis. I can do this if people are curious and it would have any worth. It would tell us immediately if it's certain sellers that gain positive comments (from certain other members), or if it's certain price ranges, eras, etc.

 

If on the other hand, nobody cares to know what's actually happening, and would rather continue to make (as of yet) unsupported allegations against other members...

 

If anyone is going to make an allegation against anyone else, it is their responsibility to support their claims with evidence of some kind.

 

At the point where you overreach and go beyond what you can prove, it's slander. That's not what we're here for, and if people have problems with other members, maybe try and work it out privately?

[ROKUJURO]

....I’ll admit to my knowledge being limited. ......

Jean Pierre,

 

that is not surprising! Everybody's knowledge is limited, and special knowledge in a small field of interest does not make someone superior to others. Only my opinion....

[kissakai]

Usually with my tsuba I like opinions as I do not wish to sell items I've mis-described

Normally is someone describes it correctly other will rebuke this they are wrong so a balance is maintained

[Ken-Hawaii]

If I make a comment that I like a blade, tsuba, etc., it's certainly not to "push" someone's sale. It's simply because I like the item.

[Bruce Pennington]

I prefer to not have my full name mentioned. My first name is Ray, last name Snowflake

Hi Ray! Don't know you, and I have no "skin-in-the-game" on the topic, but to be fair to all other newbies that get called out for lack of names, NMB rules require that you go to your settings a fix at least a first name that appears on each post (honestly don't know where to find that). Saying your name on this thread doesn't make it appear on other ones.

[Shugyosha]

Usually with my tsuba I like opinions as I do not wish to sell items I've mis-described

Normally is someone describes it correctly other will rebuke this they are wrong so a balance is maintained

I agree with Grev on this. When I've had doubts about an item I've sold I've asked for comments so that a purchaser could make an informed decision. When I have mis-described an item, I've had a PM from a member and I've updated the listing accordingly.

 

I have been guilty of passing positive comments on other people's sales, usually because I like the item and the price and have had a positive experience with the seller in the past. That said, I usually avoid making negative comments as them's the rules. I'm not aware of any collusion between members in this regard and I'm not aware of anyone getting ripped off. On the few occasions where there has been a dispute, it has been mediated out by Brian or other forum members.

 

So who are the victims and who are the perpetrators? Is anyone going to own up or is the problem one of perception rather than one of reality?

 

If there is a genuine issue here, is it that the "perpetrators" being deliberately misleading or is the issue one of ignorance of what is sold or of applying an aspirational price to an item? This last factor tends to be self-regulating as we can all see the repeated price reductions that go on and a number of items that simply don't sell and get withdrawn - perhaps because the seller has bought from a dealer at a higher price than can be got on here.

 

If the sales section of NMB isn't perfect, it is still a fairly benign place to do business - I've only had one experience I have had second thoughts about: one of the first tsuba I bought I now feel is gendai rather than Edo period, but that is my problem and I own it.

 

Is anyone else going to fess up? 

[Alex A]

Think maybe there should be selling charge if folk are giving Brian extra work and dictating how he runs the site, only fair.

 

Maybe add a disclaimer that he is not responsible should any of us get upset or by those that give opinions.

 

Also, as regular sellers do, offer a return policy should some folk think they have been mislead in some way.

 

Ban claims of higher papers by sellers etc etc, occasionally leads to folk being disgruntled.

 

Not just sellers, should be strict instructions to buyers to, to do their homework and that they are responsible for their own purchases.

[kissakai]

What annoys me is when when someone shows an interest and asks for extra images and details then never to follow-up

Courtesy would be to return a PM from the inquirer on whether they were interested or not

[Alex A]

Agree Grev, 

 

If someone's unsure about something then they certainly should not buy it.

 

I certainly wont ship anything expensive if the potential buyer comes across as uncertain.