Nefarious Nihonto, Bogus Blades, And The Quest for Bad Papers

[jt nesbitt]

Gentlemen-

 Please allow me the space to make a fool of myself one last time. I think that I may have reached a benchmark here... Falling off a cliff, and hitting EVERY rock on the way down, without missing a single opportunity to make a mistake.

 Keep in mind - having a documented record of failure for posterity on the NMB is a great teaching tool for those who are un-registered and therefore cannot comment, and the timid newbies, that like myself, only a few months ago, were too shy to expose their own personal failings for fear of losing money on a bad investment.

  The greatest sin of all - is being incurious - I have a new enlightened paradigm, and this post is dedicated to the silent majority.

 To wit; My track record so far, has been to introduce to the NMB:

 

 A HanTanRen-To - Presented in a shirasaya to fool an unsuspecting buyer into thinking that a masterpiece of masame-hada construction could be had for $1200:

 

        http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/31840-what-in-the-cornbread-hell-is-this/

 

An altered Sayagaki attributing a $510 Wakizashi to Sadamune that was not even close:

 

      http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/32245-sayagaki-translation/

 

A geimei Wakizashi attributed to a famous smith that real Nihonto experts dismiss:

 

     http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/32344-rai-kinmichi-shobu-wakizashi/

 

An artificially aged Shinshinto nakago to emulate a Koto blade:

 

     http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/32388-yamato-hosho-tanto/?hl=hosho

 

Logically, the last piece of the puzzle is bad papers. I think that I may have a Full House here, I hope that you will concur:

 

 I bought this one awhile back on Ebay (of course) for $1,300. I bought it for no other reason than it was the cheapest katana with papers available at the time.

 

I am hoping that you will confirm that the infamous NBTHK green papers associated with this katana represent the low point of the 1970's NBTHK scandal and will therefore complete my collection of Bogus Blades, and Nefarious Nihonto! Thanks for your honest opinion! -- JT

 

PS - These are my photos, so I hope I at least score some points for technical improvement.

[Mark]

i have  no problems with these papers, they are attributing it to a low ranked smith (or group of smiths), the sword may have been polished badly since the papers were issued so maybe it looked better then. It is no treasure but the papers are probably fine (if they said Masamune or a big name smith then that would be an issue)

[Grey Doffin]

What Mark said.

Grey

[SteveM]

The shape is lovely. It looks to have been shortened by just a little bit, so the shape is still wonderful. It takes very little imagination to see how majestic it would have been at full length since it is still very close to its original length.

 

Regarding the condition of the hada: I can't tell if its a poor polish, or if it has been polished a few too many times. My first impression is the latter, and that it looks to have shingane showing through, but take that as a very amateur opinion given after looking at a few photos on the internet. I think the sword itself is a very fine koto sword - but whether it can be brought back to excellent condition, or if it has one too many polishing stones applied in its lifetime, is something I leave to someone more knowledgeable. 

[ChrisW]

I honestly really like the shape and the style of hamon it is sporting. I don't see a problem with paying that price for the sword itself; as always said with papers: buy the sword first.

[Vermithrax16]

Darcy wrote the great post on papers some time ago:

https://blog.yuhindo.com/green-papers-no-papers/

 

That said a low level school attribution is less scary to me with green papers than a master smith. Love the shape of this sword.

[Curran]

Papers to Kashu Iyetsugu.

I had a wak by this smith, and it came back from polish with a lot of rough hada.

 

Why would anyone fake papers to Kashu Iyetsugu?

I agree with Mark and Grey.

[jt nesbitt]

This message board is crazy! I love the weirdness of it all!

 

.....OK then, entertaining offers over $1,300 And I should move this post over to Nihonto For Sale...

[Tanto54]

Dear JT,

 

I applaud your candor and willingness to learn from your mistakes.  Just think what you could have purchased if you studied a little first or got someone here to mentor you in your purchases.  If you had all the money you spent on these ebay "treasures", you could probably purchase a very nice Juyo blade that would be a work of art and a true treasure.  Nevertheless, if you like what you purchased, that's all that matters (but now you are selling???)

[jt nesbitt]

George-

 If the only automotive experience one ever had were driving Ferraris, would they be as special? One must test drive a few Yugos to have real perspective. -- JT

[Tanto54]

But JT, just think of all that time wasted driving Yugos.....  Also, your theory is kind of like banging your head against the wall just because it feels so good when you stop.       Actually instead of Ferraris and Yugos, it is more like saying you can't enjoy driving unless you've had a few wrecks (which isn't really true...)

[Shugyosha]

Dear JT,

 

I applaud your candor and willingness to learn from your mistakes.  Just think what you could have purchased if you studied a little first or got someone here to mentor you in your purchases.  If you had all the money you spent on these ebay "treasures", you could probably purchase a very nice Juyo blade that would be a work of art and a true treasure.  Nevertheless, if you like what you purchased, that's all that matters (but now you are selling???)

+1

[Brian]

....is kind of like banging your head against the wall just because it feels so good when you stop....

Now THAT one I will need to remember.

[PNSSHOGUN]

If you had all the money you spent on these ebay "treasures", you could probably purchase a very nice Juyo blade that would be a work of art and a true treasure.  Nevertheless, if you like what you purchased, that's all that matters (but now you are selling???)

Well he has to start getting the money back somehow!  

[IanB]

Mr. Nesbitt,   

 

You have done exactly the right thing. You went out and bought swords and most importantly learned from them. So many advocate buying books and studying them before actually buying a sword / blade. Anything more likely to put people off discovering the wonderful world of Nihonto I find hard to imagine. Consider these two scenarios:

1. A beginner buys their first blade. Immediately it becomes a 'treasure' they cherish and if it is signed, they find out who is supposed to have made it. They look up other examples of that smith's work and start looking at details and comparing them with illustrations. Through this they learn some of the characteristics of that maker or his school and what they really look like and what they are called. It may be the smith is very minor, but so what. If you like the sword that is all that matters.

2. The beginner buys a book on swords and sees an illustration of one he likes the look of. He then reads the description of that smith's work and comes across a whole dictionary of terminology. Sometimes the author tries to describe some feature or other, but more often assumes the reader knows what they are talking about. It is a heck of a lot easier to know what a feature looks like and then finding out what it is called than the reverse process.

Ian Bottomley

[Gakusee]

Dear JT,

 

I applaud your candor and willingness to learn from your mistakes.  Just think what you could have purchased if you studied a little first or got someone here to mentor you in your purchases.  If you had all the money you spent on these ebay "treasures", you could probably purchase a very nice Juyo blade that would be a work of art and a true treasure.  Nevertheless, if you like what you purchased, that's all that matters (but now you are selling???)

. Buy a Juyo blade for a couple of thousand dollars that the OP has spent on his eBay purchases? No, no chance

[Tanto54]

Dear Ian,

 

If it were 1, 2, 3 or even 5 blades, I might agree with you.  But he has bought 12+ "treasure" blades that he now describes as "nefarious and bogus", and his method of study has been to plop the blades on this Board and wait to get spoon-fed information (and his sole mentor is Jay Leno...).  Then when at least one turns out not so bad, he decides to resell.  I can only imagine that when you made your comment, you didn't know about the 12 other purchases that he made before leaning anything...  I can't agree that his approach is "exactly the right thing".  I like that he wants to educate newbies by being candid about his mistakes, but do you really want to advise newbies to follow his example of "I bought it for no other reason than it was the cheapest katana with papers available at the time."  Not because he loved it, or because it appealed to him - just because it had papers!  How many times have we said buy the sword not the mei (or papers)?

 

Michael, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here too (yes, a couple of thousand dollars multiplied by 12 will get you a juyo).

[jt nesbitt]

The offer to sell this sword was in jest...not at all what I am trying to learn about from this group of experts whom I greatly admire. I don't want to sell anything, I want to learn this material from the bottom up.

 If the general consensus is that these papers are accurate, would someone please post an example of AUTHENTIC FAKE green papers? (Hilarious thought, right!?) -- JT

[Oshy]

As a car enthusiast I definitely agree with this and can make direct connections to nihonto and all things really.. When you start at the bottom and work your way up in quality there is a natural growth in perspective and appreciation. Hand someone a juyo as the first blade they see and they will not appreciate or enjoy it like someone would who has worked their way up to a juyo after a decade of hard earned collecting and learning. I will say though, I too have been burned by ebay. Koshirae and tsuba have been fine but I would stay away from blades. Start from the bottom but after a bit of study and from reputable sources.

 

George-

 If the only automotive experience one ever had were driving Ferraris, would they be as special? One must test drive a few Yugos to have real perspective. -- JT

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here are few thoughts on this particular sword that I have. I do think originally it might have been an early Muromachi period tachi. As the sword sits now at 70,3 cm and like Steve said earlier I do think it has bee slightly shortened by some cm. The older hole in the tang appears to be the original one and as I imagine the original length the hole is still quite far away from the beginning of the blade and that was more common in tachi style mounting.

 

The condition of the sword is unfortunate as it is in rough condition. The attributions on low class mumei blades should not be taken as 100% direct. Given the rough condition and the this sword isn't a remarkable object of art the attributions can be to just some lower tier makers, like in this case Ietsugu from Kaga. For example the shinsa team might be seeing something that points towards Hokkoku-mono, then as the condition is what it is a much more specific attribution could be extremely difficult. So most likely it would be lower class sword from Kaga, Etchū, Echizen etc. I believe It is just the fact that NBTHK does not want too vague in their attributions and they sometimes go to very specific attributions. I would be perfectly fine for just like Hokkoku-mono (Muromachi period) attribution on a sword like this. When you compare attributing low class and high class swords you'll notice how much better the condition is in high class swords and you can identify them more clearer.

 

I see that you mention failing JT but I do not think this as a fail, it is just what bit over 1000$'s put into a long antique Japanese sword will get you (actually I think many of the c.1000$ long swords are worse than this one you got). In general the higher quality you want the more money you will need to invest. 10,000$'s will get you a good sword and 100,000$'s will get you an amazing one.

[Brian]

It's not like they are counterfeit papers. They were genuine papers, just the attributions were not accurate.
Not worth making a big deal out of it. Just don't trust the judgements too much, that is all.
And you need to stop looking at gimei swords as a train smash. Most of us have bought gimei before, or own gimei. As long as you enjoy the sword, it is not a huge deal. It only becomes a big deal when you step up to being a serious and high end collector and real the level where Juyo and TH becomes an issue. For the average beginner or middle of the road collector, gimei is part of the game. Especially since it is thought that there are more gimei than real signatures out there.

[jt nesbitt]

Brian-

 Do you have an example of incorrect green paper attribution? I have read about it on the NMB, and everyone seems to agree that they are "worthless", but I haven't seen a post that shows a green paper that has a bogus attribution presented next to a yellow paper that has the correct attribution....Any past threads that illustrate this? Thanks --- JT

 

PS- Is this a good example of "shintetsu" ?

[Surfson]

JT, you are hilarious and self deprecating in a delightful way.  I think that you have had a lot of fun in your collecting so far, and I hazard to guess that you will get all of your money back if you throw these fish back in the ebay pool.  

 

What you have learned is that there is no free lunch, easily found treasure or replacement for study in this sport, and I don't sense that you will repeat your past mistakes.  

 

I hope that you dump all of these dogs, recover all of your money and then start to read and consider what you would like to get next.  The folks on the NMB would be happy to advise you if you find potential winners.  

 

So please continue to bring your humor and growing interest in nihonto to the message board.  It is good fun when you trigger these discussions!  Cheers, Bob

[Tom Darling]

JT,  I am sure, I am not alone, when I tell you that, I've had three different green paper attributions on one mumei katana in five years. Between the NTHK and NBTHK, and there all considered good!   Cheers.

 

 

Tom D.

[Mark]

if you have a "green paper"  that verifies a signature for a top Shinto smith, (EX: Shinkai, Tadayoshi, Tadatsuna, any of the JoJo saku or SaiJo saku) or an unsigned blade with attribution to Top level Koto smith (Masamune, Sadamune etc etc) then i would discount or not value those. It would be logical that an owner who wants to sell a big name sword for top price to get Hozon TH first. If the :green paper" is for a low ranked smith or attribution to low ranked smith then it is probably fine. The problem was (in the past) people trying to make money selling BIG name swords for BIG money that were not what they seemed.

 

just my opinion

[Surfson]

Mark, your opinion on this is perfectly reasonable and a alternate approach to those that say that all green papers are trash.  

 

I would only add that if one finds a sword with only green papers that just came out of an old collection (one built in the 70s or earlier) that has just sat since then with heirs or otherwise, the green paper, even if to a big name, may still have a chance to be right.  I would (and have) in his situation papered the blade again (usually with NTHK since it is a pain to send a sword to Japan just for papers), in order to have a more trustworthy opinion on it.  

 

I have found several swords with green papers to famous smiths that papered again decades later to the same smith with NTHK-NPO (including a Nidai Muramasa and a Nobukuni).

[Tom Darling]

JT,

 

How do you know, which, paper (grn or yelo) is authentic or correct, on either a signed or unsigned sword.

 

Tom D.

[Yuradneprov]

Best thing, I learned was to study and buy books prior to buying any swords or kodogu especially from eBay. Very rarely will you find treasure there it happens but once every blue moon. When I started I also bought these types of swords but quickly realized that they were of poor quality and simply listed it back up on eBay and sold all them and took a loss of a grand or 2. You live and you learn. You pay for what you get.

[Yuradneprov]

There's a lot of references out there for you to buy depending on what you like. Better you spend money on books first and study so you know what to look for, Raymond also helped me out and suggested what books to buy and I did and now have a very nice collection of nihonto books and nice swords)

[Dave R]

 Personal opinion,as a collector for 50 years, and having access to the Royal Armouries Library which is publicly accessable and staffed by really helpfull people....  I recomment starting online.

 

 This site is a good place to start with a good old "lurk and search". Ohmura' site is excellent for Gunto,  Military Swords of Imperial Japan (Guntō) .  For more general nihonto information and a good primer, Usagiya, usagiya.

 

Books are lovely, and very handy for a quick reference and an enjoyable read, but you need to spend hundreds to get the same quality of information as you get online. The primary advantage though online is the search function, and the ability to instantly reference something that you read. See a reference or a word you don't understand, left click and highlight, right click to get the drop down menu, left click google search. 

 

Nb, I say "start online" and then you will get the basics, for some things only (expensive) books will do the job.

 

ps. the photo is a screen shot from http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sword_home.html