Serpentine Dragons worth a second look.

Spartancrest · June 20, 2020

Back before the world went Covid, in 2019 Leon Kr posted a thread http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/30455-help-needed-with-mei/ That he never really got a straight answer to. I believe because at the time it was dismissed as 'oh no not another cast copy'. Well having just stumbled upon it, I thought to clarify a rather muddy topic. I am normally on the look out for mass produced copies and have posted a few threads on this subject - however this time I would like to show a collection of mass individual pieces 'utsushi' I would guess. From my research there are quiet a range of metals used in their construction but they tend to have three distinct features either a full signature. A partial signature. Or are not signed. The design is always the same but I have yet to see any, that are an exact copy of another. The signatures according to the various owners or sellers usually state to be 'Toshimasa' - Then it gets mixed up - Kofu ju Toshimasa, Kofu jyu Toshimasa, Sumu Toshimasa and the book by the members of the 'Japanese sword society of New York' 1966 describe the maker as 'Mitsunobu (Bushu {Musashi} Province) yet apart from the last, the Kanji is all the same? Toshimasa had several designs, Leon Kr's 'Waves and Birds' also becomes 'Waves and Maple leaves'. Then there is the Dragon - Rain dragon, Smooth dragon, Serpentine dragon, Water dragon, Kissing dragon - no one knows and does it really matter! The point is they are not cast copies.

ps. There were several 'Toshimasa' including a father and son - take your pick because your guess is as good as anyone elses!

Spartancrest · June 25, 2020

In the last few months I have managed to pick up two 'Serpentine' guards, one in Iron last night. Difficult to judge from the auction images, I will have to wait for its arrival to determine how it was made. Not too concerned as the price was not very high. My collection now has three of this design and in three different metals.

ROKUJURO · June 25, 2020

Probably not 'mass produced', but the design was repeatedly used with little variation. Not unusual in Japanese art. Soft metal basic TSUBA plates were indeed cast before they could be worked on, but this has nothing to do with mass production.

Robin · June 25, 2020

Not unlike the examples you shown...

Only...this one is an iron tsuba.

I know very little about it. I asked around, but nobody seems to know for sure where to place it.

Plenty ideas, but not consistent in one direction.

I've seen a comparable papered tsuba on AOI...attributed to Myochin, but not supported by any of the people of knowledge I showed it to.

All I know...I like it.

Still eager to learn more about it, but I gave up and just appreciate it's soft feel, nice details and the flowing motion.

Robin

kissakai · June 25, 2020

I've no idea but it is very nice

Spartancrest · June 26, 2020

Robin. That is too nice! Let me know if you want to swap ! [i too have some doubt on it being Myochin].

Grev. has some nice Dragons as well, you should get in contact with him.

I have come across a similar design to the bird and maple leaf guards, mentioned in the first post - perhaps someone can identify its mei?

https://www.jauce.com/auction/d320270866

Yasaka Azuma · June 27, 2020

It's raining all over Asia. By the grace of the rain dragon that controls rain.

A pattern that Mito School specializes in.Unfortunately, I can find the clone tsuba.

Yas

雨龍図透鍔 amaryuzu-sukashi tuba

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/onikuma1210/e/fdac3712ddd3b8ae8ae102cc49fb552e

Spartancrest · July 9, 2020

Robin & Yas

I have compared the two examples you posted - Due to the slight lighting differences it is difficult to tell if in fact they are of the same guard - possibly years apart, or if not the identical guard then they are so close with the same tagane marks they must be cast from the same mold.

Yasaka Azuma · July 9, 2020

Some items with a slightly different shape come with a NBTHK certificate, and they may be sold by professional shops. So I cannot be sure that it is a casting.

Yas

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/af19129-%E9%8D%94%EF%BC%9A%E7%84%A1%E9%8A%98%EF%BC%88%E6%98%8E%E7%8F%8D%EF%BC%89-tsuba-mumeiunsignednyochin

b.hennick · July 9, 2020

There looks to be a casting line in the middle of the rim (mimi) of the tsuba.

Spartancrest · July 10, 2020

Barry

There is the same line on the example with the red background [not shown in picture] The slight differences may indicate a separated daisho set, At a guess NBTHK probably got this one wrong - or do they award papers for castings these days!

Spartancrest · July 17, 2020

Yas

There is a better quality dragon in the same style as you have posted- I realize these are not the same pattern as the original post.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/OLD-Japanese-SWORD-IRON-TSUBA-DRAGON-GOLD-FLAMING-PEARL-FORGED/362699252450?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Dc2f86f180de044d8b8c4f3255fe611ee%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D264784173278%26itm%3D362699252450%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Aba9997cc-c823-11ea-97c0-74dbd18015b7%7Cparentrq%3A5c9ca5e41730a994816e5d50fffcd6f4%7Ciid%3A1

He seems a little more aggressive with his mouth open!

He has a friend looking back over his shoulder from an auction back in 2012.

Yasaka Azuma · July 17, 2020

Yas

There is a better quality dragon in the same style as you have posted- I realize these are not the same pattern as the original post.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/OLD-Japanese-SWORD-IRON-TSUBA-DRAGON-GOLD-FLAMING-PEARL-FORGED/362699252450?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Dc2f86f180de044d8b8c4f3255fe611ee%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D264784173278%26itm%3D362699252450%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Aba9997cc-c823-11ea-97c0-74dbd18015b7%7Cparentrq%3A5c9ca5e41730a994816e5d50fffcd6f4%7Ciid%3A1

He seems a little more aggressive with his mouth open!

He has a friend looking back over his shoulder from an auction back in 2012.

How about...I have no idea.

My prospect is $280, $475 is too high.

Yas

Spartancrest · July 18, 2020

Yas

You are right - there must be a lot of this design, they turn up regularly. Do you think the dealers don't know what they are selling? Or should it be 'buyer beware'. Sometimes the pictures are too bad to make a good judgement, perhaps this is intentional?

Another poor casting.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tsuba-Japanese-Samurai-Dragon-sukashi-copper-sword-fitting-katana-Edo-wakizashi/174336697085?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D118d3fa5e2f340df891dce0780a795b2%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D174336697085%26itm%3D174336697085%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A826bbcfb-c8a1-11ea-8b71-74dbd180be5d%7Cparentrq%3A5fd4f6741730aa12e54700f8fffabe28%7Ciid%3A1

Yasaka Azuma · July 18, 2020

Dale. Thank you for the interesting sample. I've added the image to my library.

I think that the rough place on the back side of seppa-dai is a trace of gas generated in the molten metal. It has a unique finish to castings.

An imitation may be sold without the seller knowing.

Yas.A

Spartancrest · September 5, 2020

Just an update on these Serpentine/Rain Dragon designs, I have found evidence of at least one rather obvious Iron casting of the design - there is no evident Izarae [cleaning a casting] Even for a casting there should have been some sort of 'quality control' - The asking price is way off the scale. I will leave it up to the viewer to find the faults - many.

Yasaka Azuma · September 6, 2020

Another one. Items with hairlines on Seppadai may be suspicious. As a trace of castings polished with a power polishing machine.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/x724588152

Brian · September 6, 2020

Those lines are one of the first things I look for in a cast tsuba. They appear on many tsuba that don't show many other signs. But almost always indicate a cast tsuba or a very poor one.

Greg F · October 1, 2020

Being the owner of one of the rain dragon tsuba at the top of this thread (tsuba with blue background from Grey) im enjoying this thread. I collected quite a few images of similar tsuba including some in this thread but unfortunately I deleted them. Thanks for your efforts Dale and Yas.

Regards

Spartancrest · October 1, 2020

Greg F

I have just over thirty individual images of this type, most with dimensions.

some are from old sources so a bit grainy but clear enough to disern that they are not duplicates. Send me a PM if you would like me to forward some or all.

Spartancrest · October 5, 2020

I just found this half finished hobby piece. https://www.jauce.com/auction/s774163452

The asking price is a bit out of the ball park. Does suggest the design is still popular.

Spartancrest · March 6, 2021

Updating this post, I now have images of 42 distinct 'Rain' Dragons the majority of which have the lower left [omote side] curled leg [tendril?] facing to the right. There are a small number where this curl is to the left, the numbers work out roughly as 10% are done this way. It strikes me that some makers must have strayed from the 'original' pattern - but that is part of the notion of utsushi where the emulator puts a little of his own style into the design. A recent addition to my database is even further from the pattern with a distinctly different head and less 'legs', the final curl going to the left. https://www.jauce.com/auction/b544415096

Kurikata · April 29

One more.....

Spartancrest · April 29

1 hour ago, Kurikata said:

One more...

Great find Bruno - would you believe I now have images of 127 individuals of this design - no two are exactly alike! If I can add this latest to the list it will get me that much closer to the 200 I am now aiming for?

In order to keep track of them I have broken them up into six subgroups - it allows me to sort images that reappear in sales, from the 'new' ones that may turn up. As you might imagine some turn up several times and can appear in different lighting and at different angles. The rough criteria are 1. Signed intact seppa-dai. 2. Signed altered/cut seppa-dai 3. Unsigned intact seppa-dai 4. Unsigned altered/cut seppa-dai 5. Left curl lower 'leg' and 6. Damaged or 'odd'. These sub groups allow me to check the image in a much reduced total. Checking the tagane-ato or other markings narrows the list down very fast. This new image would be the 22nd in the signed intact seppa-dai group.

Steves87 · April 29

Dale already has these two on file, but here they are to add to the forum examples.

Ron M · April 29

Saw this thread had a new post and so I’m posting my Rain Dragon pair. One is slightly bigger. Thanks

Spartancrest · April 29

Darn I was hopeful of finding two new ones but alas I had the large one already Ron.

Spartancrest · May 14

Made it to 130 today! https://www.jauce.com/auction/f1136270162 Mr bent nose - I might call him "Jimmy D." [the younger members will have to look up who Jimmy D . . . . . . was ] "Hotch-cha-cha-cha-cha!"

Okan · May 14

I recently bought a new sword with some rain dragons on the koshirae, thought would be interesting to share under this discussion.

Dereks · May 15

18 hours ago, Okan said:

I recently bought a new sword with some rain dragons on the koshirae, thought would be interesting to share under this discussion.

Wow! What school is this? Is that a tachi? And what's inside?

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