A stupid terminology question...

[16k]

... But one that’s been bugging me!

 

So, a Shinsakuto is a newly made sword. Okay so, of course, a guy living during the Kanbun period who had a sword made got a Shinsakuto. So far, so good.

 

But how long does a Shinsakuto remain a Shinsakuto? For example, swords made during the Showa, Heisei and now Reiwa periods are all Gendaito. But would you say they are all Shinsakuto? A WW2 sword would be a Gendaito, but a Shinsakuto? Probably not! 
 

So when did it stopped being one? When Showa turned into Heisei? And now that we are in Reiwa, Are Heisei Swords only Gendaito or do you consider them Shinsakuto?

 

What would you say defines the time limit of a Shinsakuto? Hair splitting thread, but I’d just like to hear your input.

[David Flynn]

I'll throw another one out there.   Shinken, try discussing this with Martial Artists.

[Oshy]

Great question I would love to know people's thoughts on as well

[John A Stuart]

Shinsakuto, to me, a sword made during my lifetime. Gendaito, a sword made post Hatorei. Shinken, any steel sword which is or copies real cutting swords. John

[Oshy]

So based on that, my recent Enomoto Sadayoshi acquisition dated 1986 would be a Gendaito to me being born only a couple years later but would be considered a Shinsakuto to most everyone else?

 

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/as18465-%E5%88%80%EF%BC%9A%E6%98%AD%E5%92%8C%E4%B8%99%E5%AF%85%E7%A7%8B%E6%B9%A7%E6%B0%B4%E5%BF%83%E8%B2%9E%E5%90%89%E4%BD%9C%E7%84%A1%E9%91%91%E6%9F%BB-katanashowa-hinoe-tora-yusuishin-sadayoshi-sakumukansa

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

Shinsakuto, to me, a sword made during my lifetime. Gendaito, a sword made post Hatorei. Shinken, any steel sword which is or copies real cutting swords. John

I agree with John on almost everything. Gendaito has long been defined as blades manufactured post-Hatorei until WWII. Shinken (live blade) are non-traditionally-made blades made for cutting, versus an iaito, which is a non-traditional blade without a sharp edge.

 

A shinsakuto is defined as a traditionally-made blade manufactured post-WWII.

[Bruce Pennington]

I like Ken's breakdown of the terms. Sometimes a term is created using the literal meaning of the words, but as time passes, the meaning assigned stays even if the literal translation no longer makes sense.

 

My favorite example is Kyu-gunto and Shin-gunto. When the WWII swords were created they were the new army sword (shingunto), which made the WWI era swords old army swords (kyugunto). Now, they're all old army swords, but the terms stuck.

[Guido]

I think the answer lies in the term gendaitō = “present day sword(s)”, i.e. at the turn of the century, when this term was coined. Some time after the war, when sword making resumed, there was a need to give those swords a description without re-writing all books on swords, so the shinsakutō = “newly made sword(s)” was “invented”. 

 

My guess is that those terms will remain for the forseeable future, and shouldn’t be taken literally - after all, if a sword is made today, it’s a shintō = “new sword”, isn’t it? 

[16k]

I like your replies guys!

 

Though they all seem different and valid.

 

So John, if a Shinsakuto is a sword made during your lifetime, then a Shinsakuto will be different for everyone.

 

Ken, that is my favorite so far. However, these swords will necessarily stop being Shinsakuto at some point. when?

 

Guido, you are, of course, completely right and I wouldn’t dare challenge your knowledge, but your explanation begs another question. If Gendaito are present day swords, then they’ll have to be renamed in the future as there will always be new present days. What do you think of the Kapp/Yoshihara term of Shingendaito for post WW2 swords. Though, once again, Gendaito is less than ideal.

 

Technically, when manufactory methods or intent changes, the name of the period changes too, so provided we keep going with the same methods/intent for the next 200 years,will those still be Gendaito (possibly) and Shinsakuto (not that newly made after 200 years). I like those conundrums!

[Guido]

As I said above, the terms shouldn’t be taken literally. Besides, they have been established by now, and I don’t expect any changes among sword collectors/dealers/curators and so on. Don’t overthink things. 

[16k]

Actually realized there was an older thread about this. Even if there isn’t a definition set in stone, I like Markus' definition. It makes a lot of sense I think.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23-gendaido-vs-shinsakuto/

[Katsujinken]

Yep, Ken + Markus have the right recipe in my opinion. Was explaining this to some kohai in my dojo a few weeks ago. It’s a confusing issue for laypeople!

[SteveM]

We already have the following

 

新刀 = 　　shintō: literally "new swords". Edo to late 1700s

新新刀 =    shin-shintō: literally "new new swords". Late 1700s to late 1800s

 

So may I be the first to offer this suggestion

 

新新新刀 = shin-shin-shintō: literally "new new new swords". 1900s  

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think in later generations they will keep the term gendaito and set a time period for it.

The term shinsakuto will remain for new swords.

I think the end of gendaito will be somwhere between 1950-80.

From that point on we will use a new term for what we call shinsakuto now.

 

I think they will stick to the 300year old swords are "new swords" rule.

Its even easier for research.

 

 

EDIT: I thought all the time Shinsakuto turns gendaito if the smith who made it goes in  retirement.

[Greg F]

My view is the same as Johns.

 

Greg