Tachi-style Police Sword

[Bruce Pennington]

Thought this was interesting. "Trenchwarfare" at Gunboards posted a set of police swords, and right in the middle is a large, Type 98 styled sword with a police badge on the fuchi.

 

Dawason covers this model on page 321, and says the style seems to be a very late war model, as the detail-work on the metal fittings is poor and the saya is a very coursely made wood painted black. The blade in the Dawson example is made in 1945. Trench's is mumei. The canvas says cover was added by the current owner.

 

found here: https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1151595-Hello-boys-I-m-baack

[ChrisW]

Very cool find Bruce! Have you seen an example in person?

[16k]

First time I see one that is not in Dawson's!

[Bruce Pennington]

Very cool find Bruce! Have you seen an example in person?

No. And like JP, first time I’ve seen an actual one.

[Shamsy]

There have been 3 for sale on eBay in the last 5 or more years. Two I good condition, one in very poor condition. These are rare and possibly could be called the pinnacle of police sword collecting. I really like police swords and collecting them was an alternative to 95s, but there doesn't seem to be as much variation. It's awesome to see a whole collection together like this.

[Bruce Pennington]

Found another being sold by Showa22 on fleabay:

 

 

He says it's signed "Masazane".  Sesko lists smiths using "政" for Masa, but "zane" in all the names I can find are "真".  The don't have that added vertical line on the left side.  What do you think @SteveM @Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN?

[SteveM]

真 is a valid variant of 真. So 政真 is fine for Masazane. But... I can't find this smith when I do a quick search online. 

[C0D]

i'm not sure it's the same guy tho

[Bruce Pennington]

14 minutes ago, C0D said:

i'm not sure it's the same guy tho

Oops, forgot to check Slough.  Good link, thanks Manuel.  Looks like the same guy to me.

 

38 minutes ago, SteveM said:

真 is a valid variant of 真. So 政真 is fine for Masazane. But... I can't find this smith when I do a quick search online. 

Thanks Steve!  Those variants always trip me up.

[mdiddy]

I have had several over the years. I still have at least one.

The nicest though was the one we had from Plimpton's collection. Everything on it was mint. 

 

Also, on the ones I have had - particularly Plimpton's - the saya was the same or very similar to that on the oft-discussed 'souvenir' sword. Different furniture of course, but the same black finish.

[DTM72]

Matt Brice has one for sale on his website.

 

https://stcroixblades.com/shop/products/Japanese-police-shin-gunto-sword-from-the-plimpton-collection-premium-condi/

 

[mdiddy]

7 hours ago, DTM72 said:

Matt Brice has one for sale on his website.

 

Good catch! That's the one from the Plimpton collection, the same in the book excerpt I posted. It's a stellar example of this kind of variant.

[John C]

11 hours ago, mdiddy said:

the saya was the same or very similar to that on the oft-discussed 'souvenir' sword.

To me, this makes sense. If the souvenir sword were modeled after an existing sword, a civilian (?) model would be readily available. 

John C.

[mdiddy]

10 hours ago, John C said:

To me, this makes sense. If the souvenir sword were modeled after an existing sword, a civilian (?) model would be readily available.

 

The examples of the tachi style police sword that I have encountered have all appeared to be issued late in the war. Specifically, the furniture - fuchi, kabutogane, etc were all very crude, and the blades were low-end showato, occasionally signed. This contrasts with earlier police-style swords that featured higher quality workmanship (see attached photos).

 

I don't think the 'souvenir' sword was modeled after a civilian sword, I think they just had similar saya to that of the police sword because they probably came from the same supplier late in the war. 

 

[John C]

43 minutes ago, mdiddy said:

same supplier late in the war.

I agree. The supplier probably had boxes of these laying around at the end of the war. The souvenir swords were not ordered until 3 months after the end of the war, so they just used existing parts (e.g. the lacquered saya, the Tenshozan blade, the cheap furniture, etc.).

John C.

[mdiddy]

1 hour ago, John C said:

The souvenir swords were not ordered until 3 months after the end of the war, so they just used existing parts (e.g. the lacquered saya, the Tenshozan blade, the cheap furniture, etc.).

 

Is it possible some of the souvenir swords already existed? Could some have already been put together for some other use late in the war before re-purposing to fulfill orders from GHQ? Certainly would have made production easier if they already had a design template, stock inventory, supply of materials, etc.

[Kiipu]

On 3/27/2023 at 6:24 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Found another being sold by Showa22 on fleabay:

 

That is odd as the pictures look more like those of the eBay seller "smallsword".  Do you have a link?

[John C]

I suppose it's possible. But I think it would have been odd to mix army and navy parts. Plus the snipped nakago on most of the blades (though not all) leads me to believe these were purpose built. That said, there are blades with normal nakago jiri and signed that I suspect were surplus and used first. Indeed, we are working with the preponderance of the evidence. What we need is a smoking gun!

John C.

 

4 hours ago, mdiddy said:

Is it possible some of the souvenir swords already existed?

 

[Kiipu]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:27 AM, mdiddy said:

the saya was the same or very similar to that on the oft-discussed 'souvenir' sword.  Different furniture of course, but the same black finish.

 

Matt, I find your observations about the scabbard intriguing.  Based upon your observations, I am thinking that these "police shin guntō" could be postwar in origin.  It is interesting that the police were specifically mentioned in 1948 as a possible purchaser of these swords.  Maybe Tenshozan outfitted some of these souvenir swords with the police fittings in an attempt to sell them to the police agency?  When the attempt failed, maybe they ended up going to the Army PX along with the other remaining souvenir swords.  I would like to add that these swords could only have been sold to a government agency, either Japanese or American, as Japanese citizens were not allowed to own modern swords.  I would like your learned opinion on this matter as you have had some of these swords in hand.

 

27 December 1948

4. Recommend the following action be taken to dispose of this stock of swords:

a.  Dockside sale of souvenir swords to personnel departing for the Z.I. or,

b. Require the Japanese Government to purchase the swords for use as side arms or emblems of authority for the Japanese police officials.  These emblems of authority would be similar to those worn by French or other European officials.

 

13 OCT 1949

3. The Tenshozan Works twice requested that this investigation be suspended for periods of three months each in order that they might endeavor to dispose of the completed swords through other channels.  The efforts of the manufacturer, however, were unsuccessful.

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

That is odd as the pictures look more like those of the eBay seller "smallsword".  Do you have a link?

I'm sorry, you are right, it is Smallsword.

[mdiddy]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Based upon your observations, I am thinking that these "police shin guntō" could be postwar in origin.

 

It's an interesting supposition and possible, but a stretch in my opinion because the police sword has a number of differences from the 'souvenir' sword that are not easily justified by the time frame. Specifically:

 

1. The police sword has a brass Type 98 tsuba; given the tie to military use, while there may have been a surplus, it seems an odd part to have and be using at production scale in 1948.

 

2. The police sword has same rayskin under the tsuka-ito; that differs from the 'souvenir' sword and would require a different source for supply. It seems odd they would purposely choose that material in 1948 given they already had another material in use for production (i.e. the black canvas) and the complexities of having to stand up a new / different supply source.
 

3. The main difference are the blades themselves; the 'souvenir' swords all have naval-style stainless blades with etched or no hamon, but the police swords have at least Seki-style showato. The one I have now is frankly borderline gendaito - nice signature, nicely filed nakago with hints of the silvery finish associated with gendaito, the hamon has a nioi guchi with some hataraki. The other police swords I had were signed, either with a Seki-style oil-quenched gunome midare or a kind of suguha. This kind of workmanship would really be a stretch if these swords were made post-war, imo. I can't imagine they were surplus stock either because they were all nice enough to have been put into a late war gunto mount sometime between 1943-1945.

 

What do you think? Happy to keep exploring the topic.

[mdiddy]

6 hours ago, John C said:

But I think it would have been odd to mix army and navy parts.

 

There are examples during the war where army and navy parts were mixed. Even examples later in the war.

 

6 hours ago, John C said:

Plus the snipped nakago on most of the blades (though not all) leads me to believe these were purpose built.

 

The snipped nakago is a sign of a weak production process. Historically, and even into the later war years, the Japanese took great care in finishing the nakago. The snipped nakago suggests to me possible post-war manufacture, but that leaves very many of the 'souvenir' swords with perfectly fine nakago showing the care normally expected of Japanese swords: shaped nakago-jiri, yasurime, mekugi-ana placement, etc. It's those nicer ones that I surmise may have been used in versions of the 'souvenir' sword that existed before the end of the war, even if they did not see combat nor were even issued.

 

6 hours ago, John C said:

What we need is a smoking gun!

 

I did find an interesting example. Maybe this discussion would be better had on the formal 'NLF' thread?

[Kiipu]

14 hours ago, mdiddy said:

What do you think? Happy to keep exploring the topic.

 

I find your arguments compelling and now agree that these "police shin guntō" should be placed in the World War 2 category.  It is interesting that this particular scabbard maker was a wartime supplier and continued making scabbards after the war for Tenshozan (or possibly Tenshozan made them all along?).  As an aside, Nagoya Arsenal switched to wooden scabbards for officer swords in 1944 and I have a little missive about the matter over at WRF.  The Tōkyō 1st on the other hand was reluctant to downgrade the quality of the fittings.  However, in March 1945 all such production ceased in this location courtesy of the B-29.

The Atsuta Factory & Military Swords

 

Tenshozan seems to have used a 1 or 2 digit black painted subassembly number on these souvenir swords and I have used this little tidbit to help identify some of them.  In contrast, the late war naval swords will frequently have a 4 digit black painted subassembly number.

 

The second F&G book has a rather good summary of the naval sword supply chain, think Minatogawa & Tenshozan, that is repeatedly overlooked by many researchers.

[mdiddy]

On 3/29/2023 at 2:25 PM, Kiipu said:

(or possibly Tenshozan made them all along?)

 

Yes, I wonder if that may have been the case. Tenshozan increasingly shows up as an adept player in the sword industry from the 40's onward. Tangentially related, I would love to know the relationship between Kawamura Eijiro Kanenaga and the Tenshozan manager Shintaro Yao. I can't imagine Kanenaga was just an employee. He passed in '43, I wonder if had some kind of stake in the operation given his connection to Seki, work with experimental steel, etc. 

 

On 3/29/2023 at 2:25 PM, Kiipu said:

Tenshozan seems to have used a 1 or 2 digit black painted subassembly number on these souvenir swords and I have used this little tidbit to help identify some of them.  In contrast, the late war naval swords will frequently have a 4 digit black painted subassembly number.

 

That's an interesting observation. I did a little digging in my archives and found some intriguing late war kai gunto examples that may enrichen the discussion on the 'souvenir' swords a little. I'll post them soon.

[Shamsy]

Had a brief read through the thread. I'm in the 'not post-war' camp, but always open to changing my position. I have a Type 98 that is late war. Pretty average oil blade, nothing fancy but not garbage. It has VERY crude fittings and a black painted wooden saya with the seki sticker on it. Some sort of saya cover that's... either fake leather or maybe paper? Instead of same on the tsuka, I think it's card or paper?

 

The relevance? Only that there are swords that have really crude late war fittings, have black painted saya (far worse than the souvenir swords). So not sure I'd place too much weight in that being a factor.