Please help Identify Unmarked Short Sword

[Karenfc]

We are long time collectors,  but novices when it comes to identifying an unmarked piece.  We removed the handle,  nothing there.  Looked all around,  up and down,  still nothing.  Blade is approx. 18" long.  Any help would be much appreciated.  Thanks!

[16k]

Can’t say much without seeing the whole blade, but with a Kyu Gunto, the blade could be industrial.

[ROKUJURO]

Karen,

close-up photos of the NAKAGO (tang) might help as well. 

[Dave R]

Police Wakizashi?

[Bruce Pennington]

I would really like to see a close-up of the blossom on side of the handle backstrap. It is either ground down or worn down.

[Bruce Pennington]

And a picture of the design on the back strap

[lonely panet]

It's just a type 19 company grade you gunto, either the sukura was not put on, or has been ground off. T the photos don't show much.

[Karenfc]

The Mum appears to be ground down on both sides and backstrap.  I am including more pic's.  Thanks.

[ROKUJURO]

  On 6/5/2020 at 10:53 PM, Karenfc said:

The Mum appears to be ground down on both sides and backstrap.  I am including more pics.

I am very sorry for your Mum. 

 

What about a NAKAGO photo?

[Ontario_Archaeology]

I wonder if the mum was ground down for the same reason alot of rifles have their mum scratched out.

[Dave R]

If I remember rightly according to Nick defacing the 'mum just means sold out of the service, like the opposed broad arrows on British issue equipment in the 19th C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Dave,

That is interesting to hear, and was where my thoughts were headed. The grinding job is thorough and done so well it didn't damage the surrounding area. It has the feel of something sold to a non-Japanese buyer. By "out of service" do you mean it could have been a civilian, not military buyer? Quite interesting!

 

Matt,

That was my first thought, too. But from the ones I've seen, they are usually roughly scratched or filed. This one is too good for that, it seems.

[Dave R]

  On 6/6/2020 at 1:30 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Dave,

That is interesting to hear, and was where my thoughts were headed. The grinding job is thorough and done so well it didn't damage the surrounding area. It has the feel of something sold to a non-Japanese buyer. By "out of service" do you mean it could have been a civilian, not military buyer? Quite interesting!

 

Matt,

That was my first thought, too. But from the ones I've seen, they are usually roughly scratched or filed. This one is too good for that, it seems.

 

 Out of service just means it left the national armed forces. On British stuff it means that it is no longer issued, and can be sold to a private purchaser, or to a foreign army even. Basically it means that the goods were not stolen, if found in other hands.

 

http://www.wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Broad_Arrow_Including_Ministry_Of_Supply_Markings.html

[Bruce Pennington]

Ok, so the buyer could have been a Japanese citizen, just not in the military.

 

Karen

I just noticed how short this looks, can you tell us the cutting length? Looks like a wakizashi in length.

[Karenfc]

Blade is approx.  18" long.  It is short.  3 untouched mums on the guard

[Bruce Pennington]

{Duplicate post}

Might as well use the space! I just saw your orignal post where you already told us the length, sorry! All the more reason to PLEASE show us the nakago, as this is a wakizashi in size.

[Bruce Pennington]

Those blossoms are actually called sakura, or cherry blossom in english. The "mum" is the chrysanthemum, and on swords, is only found on Imperial Household swords and those of officials assigned the work there.

 

18" !!! So you have a wakizashi kyugunto! Can't say I've ever seen one before!

 

Hamish, Vajo - ever seen one?

 

Also, Karen, if you don't mind, I'd like to add your pics to the "Short Gunto" thread.

[Brian]

Sold out of service means the military or govt is done with an item, and marks it as disposed of. To differentiate between sold/disposed of items, and those still owned or stolen from service. Not to say that's the case here, but that is what an out of service sign means. For example when surplus is auctioned off, or an item is sold because they are obsolete.

[Dave R]

18 inch blade, this is why I suggested it was originally a police sword.

[dwmc]

Ground down 10 petal sakura? Army ?

 

Dave M.

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, the ground-down emblem is definitely a 10-blossom sakura, but the blade could have begun it's life as a police blade, and then repurposed/refitted with an army handle at some point.

 

I'm afraid we might have lost Karen, though. A picture of the nakago sure would be helpful!

[dwmc]

Yes, very possible repurposed !

 

Dave M.

[Karenfc]

Still here.  I have to keep looking up all of these terms you all are using.  We took it apart quite a few years back,  and there were no markings.  A little nervous about doing it again.  I will post pic's if I get the nerve to do it again,  just don't want to wreck it.  Thank you all for sharing your invaluable knowledge with me,  it is greatly appreciated!

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 6/7/2020 at 2:34 PM, Karenfc said:

Still here. I have to keep looking up all of these terms you all are using. We took it apart quite a few years back, and there were no markings. A little nervous about doing it again. I will post pic's if I get the nerve to do it again, just don't want to wreck it. Thank you all for sharing your invaluable knowledge with me, it is greatly appreciated!

Sorry Karen, I normally try to use layman's terms but sometimes I forget!

 

With this kind, it's very easy to remove the handle as it's just the bamboo peg holding it on. Push that out one side, and the whole thing slides off. You won't harm it at all.

 

The point of interest is the shape of the tang, and possibly the age. Old family blades have a different shape than the mass-produced blades, so that is worth knowing.

[Karenfc]

It's really tight,  I don't think I can get it.  Any tips?

[16k]

Put a heavy cloth on the guard and tap gently on each side with a wooden or rubber hammer. It should come off.

[Karenfc]

Thanks for the tip!  Worked like a charm!

[16k]

It’s very hard to see on your pictures, Karen, but are there any file marks on the tang? Also, do you see a temper line on the blade? I think the next step would also be a picture of this temper line and of the whole naked blade. The rust on the tang is quite light, so it would match with the period the mountings were made. A temper line would help determine if the blade is traditional or not (I don’t think it is) and if there are file marks, it could give us a pointer as to the school/place it was made.

[dwmc]

Just a guess, but yasurime appears kiri, mekugi-ana looks punched, nakago patina perhaps shinshinto? Clearer photos would help greatly.

 

Dave M.

[Karenfc]

No file marks,  no temper line,  we have other swords with a temper line,  so,  I at least know what that is!