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Lo! And Weep! The most beautiful utsushi in the world!

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16k Grand Master

16k

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Yes, I think he was. I think this type of Hamon was abandoned because the hardened area was so large it was more brittle than, say, hoso Suguha.

Pete Klein Grand Master

Pete Klein

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Even though I don't 'collect' swords I have followed Ono san's work for some time now (just because I would love to be able to have one) and it seems most of the ones up for sale go for ~2.5 => 3 MY.  The one top post might just prove this incorrect as it's quite something and is I believe published in the big Ono book from awhile back.  I should have kept my copy...  that's my lament.

 

https://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/books/b993-ono-yoshimitsu-juka-choji-no-sekai-full-translation

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Gakusee Veteran

Gakusee

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So, I mentally struggle a bit with that concept of brittleness causing the ochoji hamon to subside.

Theoretically that makes sense of course, but such hamon was produced for around 30-40 years (roughly 1230-1270). If it was brittle and ineffective, it would have disappeared within 1-3 years, maximum 5-10 years. Yet, we see several decades of obusa choji, juka choji, fukuro choji, etc.

 

People often cite the Mongol invasions (1271/84) as watershed moments after which the large choji came out of fashion. Indeed, that is evident in the work of Nagamitsu and Kagemitsu. Their progenitor, Mitsutada, started off with small hamon rendered in konie in the fashion of KoBizen smiths. Then he evolved to beautiful kawazuko and ochoji in nioi in mid 1250s. At the same time, the same happened to Fukuoka Ichimonji guys like Yoshifusa and Sukezane.

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16k Grand Master

16k

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If I were to take a guess (I’m no expert or metallurgist), I’d say those kind of Hamon both have advantages and disadvantages. The Hamon might be more brittle, but at the saMe time, it is so large that it allows for repolishing and removing the dents easily. And on the plus side, the numerous ashi probably provide release area for the tension the blade might suffer. Perhaps it only disappeared because of the simple evolution in the swordsmiths understanding of metal strength and weakness. 

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Gakusee Veteran

Gakusee

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Well, the ashi indeed were there as a means to prevent a longitudinal split.

 

Also, in order to reduce the tension, mid Kamakura Bizen smiths forged the hamon in nioi when they employed larger choji. Less brittle that way. Their predecessors did it in nie and konie.

Also the hada had less nie overall (“appearing soft” is often heard) but that was of course offset by the addition of Utsuri (a bit of differential hardening there with more nie). So, they were quite skilled these guys and we cannot jump to simple conclusions.

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PNSSHOGUN Grand Master

PNSSHOGUN

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Michael, I was certainly not referring to the Ko-Bizen blades but more so the tendencies of modern smiths to produce elaborate works not focused on being the best swords for war, but more for appreciation. While the techniques for making beautiful blades are intertwined with their prowess as weapons one can't help but think not many people are testing a $30,000 sword on heavy Mongol armour these days. Then again here is a sword made by Yoshindo Yoshihara used to cut a Kabuto without any noticeable damage.

 

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Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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I looked up Yamatorige/Sanchome Utsushi on Giggle, and a slew of illustrations came back. Has anyone ever tried to work out how many have been made, and if we can see the best and the worst side by side?

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ChrisW Veteran

ChrisW

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It is probably a delicate interplaying ratio of thickness. Extremely thick hardened edged swords tend to be more brittle/bend less and when they fail, fail catastrophically. But they probably also polish out chips much easier. Thinner-edged hamon swords tend to bend rather than break, but after so much polishing or a deep enough chip, become just as broken. So a nice middle ground that allows for a thick-enough hamon to be durable for repair but have enough soft spine to allow the sword to flex and bend when necessary instead of snapping. I'd like to think that the ancient smiths eventually found the right ratios for the hamon patterns they were exploring.

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16k Grand Master

16k

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Just as an example, 

 

A thick battle sword from the end of the Muromachi period, with a rather broad hamon.

 

When i first saw it, it did make me wonder a bit with regards brittleness.

 

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katana_A090819.html

 

Ive brought this sword up before and hope the owner does not mind, its a good sword.

when you see this sword, you have to wonder why Takeda has such a mediocre reputation. This sword is gorgeous.

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paulb Grand Master

paulb

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Before we go too far down the "Snob appeal route"  Some of the Takeda smiths were known to make exceptionally good copies of other schools work.

The problem is less of sophistication and more of attribution.  They focussed on making copies of classical works. As a result they had no specific style of their own and although very talented (some of them) they had no individual traits that distinguished them. In a nation that enjoys order and conformity that creates a problem.

I have seen one or two Takeda blades that have been previously attributed to good level Osafune smiths which were beautiful. However the Bungo Takeda attribution has for some time been used as a catch all attribution for anything that could not be easily fitted in to a specific school. As a result you see huge variation in quality and style.

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Guido Grand Master

Guido

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Someone know about Kiyomaro utsushi better then the akamatsu taro ?

 

Sō Tsutomo 宗勉 comes to mind, quite a few notches above Akamatsutarō.

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Alex A Grand Master

Alex A

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I like Akamatsu Taro and there is no denying they make some great blades.

 

They make a lot of Kiyomaro style blades, I see why they are appealing.

 

For me though, there is a step up with regards quality of the hamon with regards skill and consistency.

 

Lets face it though, if they sell, then maybe that's enough.

 

Just rambling and what do iknow 

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