Gassan School

[PNSSHOGUN]

Picture of Gassan Sadakatsu:

 

 

[Guest Simon R]

I know Brian will vividly recall this but does anyone else remember this absolutely immaculate Gassan Sadakatsu general's gunto listed on eBay in February 2005?

It was still a time when, if something really grabbed my attention online, I would print off the photographs to preserve them as hard copies. Now I'm rather glad I did - this is easily one of the most beautiful examples I ever saw (on a screen least) of a military sword where absolutely everything scored top marks; the blade, the koshirae, the tassel .... even the admittedly unprovable provenance rings very true.

 

No doubt that is why the unfortunate widow had PMs from dealers left, right and centre trying to persuade her to end the auction early and then, in the months following the sale, every shyster in the sword world crawled out of the woodwork and illegally put this gunto back up for sale on eBay with copied details and photos!

 

Simon

[Bryce]

Thanks Simon,

That is a cracker! Another example made with steel smelted by the Japanese Iron Sand Steel Industry Corporation. Most of these were made in 1940, but this one is dated 1939.

Cheers,

Bryce

[PNSSHOGUN]

Thank you, Simon. Had seen that mentioned many times over the years and remembered seeing the pictures years back but never thought to save them. What a great piece, does anyone remember the hammer price?

[Guest Simon R]

46 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Thank you, Simon. Had seen that mentioned many times over the years and remembered seeing the pictures years back but never thought to save them. What a great piece, does anyone remember the hammer price?

Hi John,

I seem to remember it went for $8,000+ but I could be way off!

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Simon , I was the winning bidder on that sword with about a minute to go but was then blown out of the water !  From memory I bid twelve or  thirteen thousand and it eventually sold for around seventeen thousand .

Ian Brooks

[Guest Simon R]

3 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Hi Simon , I was the winning bidder on that sword with about a minute to go but was then blown out of the water !  From memory I bid twelve or  thirteen thousand and it eventually sold for around seventeen thousand .

Ian Brooks

Blimey, Ian! 

My recollection of $8,000+ must have been from around the middle of the auction when I took the screenshots! 😳

 

Apart from the immediate wave of scammers, I've never seen any mention of it since - does anyone know where it ended up?

[Baba Yaga]

11 hours ago, SRDRowson said:

Blimey, Ian! 

My recollection of $8,000+ must have been from around the middle of the auction when I took the screenshots! 😳

 

Apart from the immediate wave of scammers, I've never seen any mention of it since - does anyone know where it ended up?

 I knew a guy who had #2 Vin number on a Shelby Cobra that always had it for sale. He never intended to sell it for any amount of money, because he had more money than he could ever spend. He just liked to brag about how much people would pay for it. After 40 years of knowing that guy, he still has the car. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

A very interesting and in depth video showing Gassan Sadatoshi and his sons forging a sword from start to finish. There is also a brief tour of the small Gassan museum.

 

 

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,

Someone asked me what date Sadakatsu daimei/daisaku by Sadaichi began to appear. The answer is very early on. The earliest blade I have seen to date, which I believe was signed by Sadaichi for his father, was dated 1925. Below are two Gassan Sadakatsu signed tanto blades dated 1933. The one on the left was actually signed by Sadakatsu. The blade on the right I believe was signed by Sadaichi for his father.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[IJASWORDS]

G'day, 

Bryce, your belief may be correct, but it is still speculation. The problem of posting your belief in this esteemed forum is that in years to come it may be quoted as fact. 

I would like more (and possibly documented evidence) that daimei/daisaku were made as early as 1925. Signatures change slightly over the years (mine has!). 

As a SADAKATSU owner and fellow enthusiast and researcher, as you are, I rely on verifiable information, and testimony from the GASSAN family. What you say has dramatic implications for collectors/owners/researchers, and of course, regardless, they are still papered as Sadakatsu. 

Keep up the research, its been a good discussion topic.   

[John C]

On 3/8/2023 at 4:33 AM, SRDRowson said:

absolutely immaculate Gassan Sadakatsu

Simon:

Is that a General's tassel? If so, and the story about Iwo Jima is true, could that have belonged to Lt. Gen. Kuribayashi or Lt. Gen. Sadasue? 

John C.

[Toryu2020]

Sadamitsu - apologies if this was posted already...

－　月山貞光謹作 五十九回遷宮 皇太神宮御太刀以余鐵（人間国宝月山貞一初銘） Gassan Sadamitsu(Sadaichi)　－　日本刀の通信販売　明倫産業株式会社 (nipponto.co.jp)

[Bryce]

G'day Neil,

This entire hobby is based on opinion and speculation, because the people involved in the production of these blades are all dead. What you are really asking is why anyone should take notice of my opinion. Fair enough, there is nothing wrong with healthy skepticism. I have focused on studying Gassan Sadakatsu blades for the last two years. I am not asking you to just believe me. Look at the evidence I have posted and make your own conclusions. Below are some further comparisons, signed by Sadakatsu on the left and Sadaichi on the right. These are tantos dated 1925 and katanas dated 1921 and 1926. These are all papered by the NBTHK to Sadakatsu. Lastly I will finish up with a comparison of a Sadakatsu tanto dated 1933 on the left and one dated 1940 on the right. Yes there are some changes in his mei over time, but the basics of how he forms his kanji doesn't really change. Interestingly the spine of the nakago on the 1933 tanto was signed by Sadaichi who carved the horimono. Remember, I am only saying these were signed by Sadaichi for his father. I am not saying these were made by Sadaichi. Sadaichi being his father's apprentice would have been involved in the production of all of his father's blades in some form.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[David Flynn]

Bryce, that's all speculation and serves no real purpose.    Unless you can definitely  prove these swords are signed by different hands, I believe we must bow to the Sword Societies.    Daisaku/Daimei have been done since at least  the Kamakura period, but again, without definitive proof  it's just something collectors  chat about with each other and not publicly.   Once it becomes public, this allows all sort of theories to present themselves and just makes some people look silly.

[David Flynn]

Allow me to propose a hypothetical scenario.   Someone sees a Sadakatsu for sale and says to the seller, Wow, I really like that sword, let me think about it.  The sword has Hozon papers, however  the buyer has read your comments on Daisaku/ Daimie  and thinks the signature looks like one of the swords you claim is Daisaku/ Daimei.  He notifies the seller that he is no longer interested because,  according to Bryce,  the sword is Daisaku/Daimie.   The seller would have every right to be angry and criticise  you for buggering the sale.

[IJASWORDS]

Hey Bryce, do have this book? 

[PNSSHOGUN]

There are some parts in that book that are categorically wrong, such as stating Hayama Enshin was an Imperial Artisan (it was Miyamoto Kanenori). Ideally a comprehensive book produced by someone like Markus Sesko, in conjunction with the Gassan family, would be a dream reference material.

[Bryce]

G'day Neil,

I only have bits of the book, not the whole thing. Any good?

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[IJASWORDS]

Yep, a good book with history, genealogy, oshighata etc.   

[Brian]

I think we are being a bit overly harsh on someone who has taken years studying a particular subject.
I for one appreciate Bryce's research and dedication.

[almeister]

Hi Bryce

Fellow Aussie here 🇦🇺...

Awesome research you are doing !  ..

However  , I understand how others are feeling....

 

Consider me as an outsider looking in  .. that's why i will comment  ...

 

The "GASSAN SCHOOL " could probably be noted as " The Greatest School of Swordsmiths  Ever ! " 

They still are active now ! -

Wish I owned one !

 

Stand back ... think about all these Signature Discrepancies -  You're talking about  ......!

 

It almost ,  looks like " .... The Gassan School " gets away with it and gets granted certificates for other siblings /students  signing them  - this is where contradiction/authenticity / discrepancy  begins ...

 

These guys feel they're getting there investments devalued... because of this !

 

The Great Sadakazu was Awesome  !

As was - Sadakatsu ! 

 

FYI : 

4th April 1906 

Miyamoto Kanenori/Gassan Sadakazu  were appointed Teishitsu Gigien  

Direct Swordsmiths of The Imperial Court  - 

They were the only 2 Swordsmiths to ever be awarded this title 

 

My collection is based on ...

The works of Miyamoto Kanenori 

I  feel he is ..underrated  ??..

 

However  ,  He Was The Only Swordsmith  to be given a " Direct Imperial Court Ranking  -Shoshichii #7 " to my knowledge  ??

 

I attach a title of a book written for the Great Kanenori  , which may also advance your studies  ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bryce]

G’day Guys,

I was a bit surprised by the pushback I received about this topic. One of the most asked questions on this forum is “is my blade gimei?” and there are usually no shortage of eager volunteers ready to shout “gimei!”. What I was trying to show is that this is a very complex question. Smiths changed the way they signed over time and at any given time there may have been more than one person signing for the same smith. In the case of Gassan Sadakatsu there were at least two people (including him) signing his blades. You cannot compare any mei to a single oshigata and decide it is gimei. So what if Sadaichi was signing some of Sadakatsu’s blades, they are still shoshin.  As far as I know this was common practice across all schools, across all time. I have seen no evidence that Sadakazu was a better smith than Sadakatsu, or that Sadakatsu was a better smith than Sadaichi. I wonder if some of the criticism I have received was because of a theory that early Sadakatsu blades were somehow better than later ones. Again I have seen no evidence of this. A blade from 1943 is every bit as good as one from 1933. I have also seen several Tanobe sayagaki for Gassan School blades where he has stated that it was the work of the son, rather than the father as signed, so he has no problem with disclosing that information.

Cheers,

Bryce

[David Flynn]

Now that we have exhausted  the expose'  on Sadakatsu,  may we return to the Topic.   Photo's from members showing THEIR Gassan  School swords,  from Koto through to present.

 

[almeister]

Exactly...  !

Bring on the pics !

I love seeing GASSAN BLADES !!

Keep them coming  !

 

I wouldn't be surprised , if there was  " A  Hall Of Fame " for Swordsmiths  -  

That The Gassan School - Overall would be  Ranked Top Level On The Ladder  ! "

Respectfully  , Al 

[Bryce]

G'day Alan,

I don't know anything about Kanenori and will look into him as you have suggested.

Cheers,

Bryce

[Bryce]

G'day Dave,

Here you go, a 1940 Sadakatsu tanto with 30cm nagasa.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[Kamil]

Hello everyone, 

I just read through the whole conversation here, searching for some examples of ko-Gassan blades, especially Gunsho 軍勝. I own one, sent it for Tokyo shinsa in February this year, waiting for the results now. I will try to make better pictures of the ji-hada and hataraki, when comes back from Japan, hopefully with tokubetsu hozon. The ji-hada is actually kind of "runnig itame", which should be typical for Gunsho. Moto-gasane is 11mm - its a big boy.  

 

I would love to see some more examples of blades from this Nanbokucho period smith, as there are non to be seen online. Also some more information about him would be great, as there is also almost none on the internet, and I didnt even find any books that would have some bio of him (I own the exhibiton one from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts). 

 

Have a great day everyone, 

 

Rgds,

 

Kamil (CZ)

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

That is nice looking blade Kamil, will be interesting to see what NBTHK judges. To me it would seem more like late Muromachi, and there was Gassan smith Gunshō working around Eishō (1504 - 1521). I only have 1 example by this Eishō era Gunshō but it features somewhat similar shaped nakago.

 

Here is an example of Muromachi signature from Fujishiro.

 

 

As for the Nanbokuchō period Gunshō information on him is very difficult to find. I am so far only aware of 2 blades by the early Gunshō (軍勝). There is a katana dated 1363 and a tanto that is actually signed Shōgun (勝軍) but is judged as by Gunshō that is dated 1386. Some sources for information in Japanese of this smith are Sano Museum catalog: An Early Style of Japanese Sword, Jūyō Nado Zufu 21, Nihontō Kōza (small bit in English in Afu translations), Few Tōken Bijutsu magazines, in overall it is very difficult to find info on this particular smith.

 

Here are the two authentic Nanbokuchō signed items.

 

 

I don't understand why it turns the pictures sideways. They are differently on my phone & computer.

[Toryu2020]

I think it is the Muromachi smith - Later Shikkake Norinaga did similar work during the Muromachi. There is a Juyo tanto with almost the same profile...

 

-t