UNUSUAL DAGGER - MADE IN Japan FOR CHINA?

Dave R · May 21, 2020

On collectors forums for other ethnic weapons and militaria weird stuff turns up all the time! A decent amount of it often turns out to be tourist stuff. Sometimes it turns out, as with a lot of African stuff, that the original makers made no differentiation, and a tourist bought an authentic piece, and sometimes also with African stuff it's complete Brumagem in the truest sense of the word.... In one case it turned out to be a fantasy art piece made by a well known artist. All good fun, and a learning experience for all of us.

On balance I think it's a tourist piece as well, made for those with too little capacity for a full sword... those ruddy CB's and Aussies!

Ian B3HR2UH · May 22, 2020

Wow , so there are at least another 187529 other pieces of crap like this out there somewhere . I agree with Hamish 100% . Don't know why I am even giving this junk any time at all .

Ian Brooks

dwmc · May 22, 2020

I'm with the post war Japanese tourist trade faction. Definitely not a repurposed bayonet, even though marked with Nagoya stamp. (Possibly stamped in memory of better times). Fittings appear fairly decent, (We've all seen much worse). The ito wrap is seriously ugly.

Not sure why some find the item so offensive. If it had a nice black same', decent silk ito with appropriate menuki professionally wrapped and crafted it would be something I wouldn't mind owning as a novelty.

Merely an opinion,

Fire away if inclined,

Dave M.

matthewbrice · May 22, 2020

It is a repro/fantasy item.

--Matt

Ganko · May 23, 2020

Some would deem it, a turd stirrer.

Dave R · May 23, 2020

Question, if it's such uninteresting crap (and we have established that it's not a genuine piece) why go to the effort of commenting?

Ganko · May 23, 2020

I think most are bored with all the Covid 19 business and can't help ourselves.

Bruce Pennington · May 23, 2020

I think most are bored with all the Covid 19 business and can't help ourselves.

Not much else to discuss right now!

16k · May 23, 2020

So what? Maybe it’s a tourist trinket, maybe it’s a genuine never recorded item, maybe it’s a bubba job, who cares? Thing is still better looking than most repro junk around and not uninteresting since it challenges our knowledge.

lonely panet · May 23, 2020

I'll pipe up again,

If anyone thinks this resembles anything antique or slightly genuine.

They are uneducated in the area of imperial Japanese swords. Fullllllllllstop.

Stop looking in books and handle a couple of thousand IJ swords, and you will understand why certain members can spot this a mile away and can comment on it with 150% certainty.

It's not evan close to a tourist piece either. It is just plain simple modern s**t.

The uniform machining press marked area should be a massive give away.

Can we please discus something with merit, because to continue this topic only muddied the waters for those learning.

Gone are the days of finding unpublished models

Brian · May 24, 2020

Hamish,
You are allowed your opinion, even allowed to claim it is junk. All the better when you substantiate why you say that.
But you are NOT allowed to insult members and make claims about their knowledge. I think you owe people an apology for that. We have guys with years of experience, and they are allowed to state their opinion and discuss it as much as they like.Since most of those guys know far more than me about Japanese militaria, calling them uneducated is calling me uneducated. You know if you don't like the item or the discussion, participation in that thread is optional.
We are all under stress, but I think you owe some an apology.

PNSSHOGUN · May 24, 2020

While the comments from Hamish are harsh it is a little disturbing to see so much conversation on this when there are many other more interesting and enlightening topics available here.

vajo · May 24, 2020

Hamfish & John

Sorry that you get eye cancer and angry of this. But this piece is in my eyes not a replica or fake. Its a scratch made knife or dagger with relations to Japan military. Asian made or a Japanese tourist after war piece. But not as bad as mostly fakes and useable. Overall i didn't found it really bad and with some care it would look nice. It looks much better than most of the island made crude swords which are in my eyes total ugly.

And if you compare the different "serial" numbers on the link, you see that someone had made more then one of this.

I can live with the statement that i'm not very educated and often stupid in answers and questions but i try learn every day a little bid more.

lonely panet · May 24, 2020

Im never one to deliberately offend any person, and my last post wasn't done to provoke or insult. It just was poorly worded.

But I'm not sure there's any apologising needed, if any member is happy to spend there money on such items. Go for it, it's there learning curve.

I think I can back my knowledge, by stating I have owned a few items published in to both Fuller&Gregory books. Ok I'm not knowledgeable on nihonto or tsuba, but I can back my opinion on military mounts and sword models with cash donations

I know Bazza personally, so hes ok with my opinion. But lets say I'm wrong and it can be proved I'll donate the value of the alleged item to the board as a penance

16k · May 24, 2020

And don’t worry about me Hamish, I’m not the kind that gets angry or anything about such trifle. I guess everyone is entitled about their opinion. Some voice it strongly others less but it doesn’t matter.

Besides, you are right, I’m probably very uneducated compared to you so no offense taken.

Nevertheless, I don’t see what’s wrong with talking about this item, whatever it is. It is obviously intriguing enough to warrant so much discussion. I too believe, like Chris, it’s a tourist piece, the WW2 equivalent of those Meiji bone handled tanto. So if if I’m wrong and you’re right, what’s the deal, it was still an interesting discussion.

Take care and be sure there’s no ill feelings, at least from my part!

Brian · May 24, 2020

Hamish, you are mistaking what you are saying, with how you are saying it.
My opinion is the same as yours. But I don't accuse anyone who thinks otherwise of being uneducated or imply they are stupid. You need to express your opinion without involving others or making commentary about their knowledge.

I won't tolerate blatant insults, and the fact that you may know a member or a few, does not condone comments like that.

lonely panet · May 24, 2020

Once again there was no malice in my posts.

If you want to slap my knuckles, ban me for a month.

Bruce Pennington · May 24, 2020

See - we really ARE like family! HA! Arguing like two kids in the back seat of a car on a long trip. "MOM, BILLY TOUCHED ME!"..."WELL SHE'S CROWDING ONTO MY HALF OF THE CAR!" ..."MOM, HE DID IT AGAIN!"

Just shows we're human. What I DO like is that we stick it out and resolve stuff. Thanks Hamish for your hearing the other guys.

This discussion is another case showing the differences in different people's interests. "One man's trash - another man's treasure". That's all this is.

I know I'm going to wear this out, but I love it!!!:

PietroParis · May 24, 2020

Is it Hamish or HamFish?

Bruce Pennington · June 3, 2020

Transfering from the Short Gunto thread: Matt just found a tanto in military fittings that has striking resemblance to these daggers. The tanto is clearly legit, and in comparison, shows how these are not, but I can't help but think that maybe this is what the craftman had in mind when making the daggers.

(post #40, here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/32030-short-gunto/page-2)

Note that the maker used a kabutogane for a sayajiri. So there is precedent for using the "wrong" parts on gunto that are legit, though these still go too far by mixing navy and army parts.

Alan Morton · June 9, 2020

Two of them ,miles apart both the same well espoted Sir Baz and Mark

Cheers Al

Bruce Pennington · October 24, 2021

At first, with 2 daggers having different serial numbers, this had the possibility of being something pieced together post-war for souvenirs. But I've just come across a third with the same "015728" serial number, but with kanji on the other side rather than the Seki stamp. So, repeated serial numbers is a classic error of fakery.

Found here on Guns.ru

Bruce Pennington · October 24, 2021

ANNNDDD another one! HERE

Brian · October 24, 2021

They never had any possibility of being anything but modern Chinese junk. Sorry Bruce. But it's been over 75 years and new variations are purely fantasy items at this point. Oozes the feeling of poor quality and junk.

Sunny · October 24, 2021

On 5/20/2020 at 6:51 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Quite an amazing piece, whether original or post-war; whether Chinese or Bubba. Truly an exellent piece of work.

Thoughts:

1. It reminds me of Dawson's pages on Foot Soldier/Artillery SWord (pic attached). He had examples of wild custom jobs.

2. The mix of navy ashi and army Rinji-seishiki sayajiri/kabutogane + custom fuchi/koiguchi screams "Post-war". I can't see even a WWII custom shop mixing army & navy parts.

3. The Seki trademark, according to Ohmura, was created after 1940, yet the artillery sword was a late-1800's manufacture. And examples of the stamp observed are all post-1942.

4. Dawson's examples of the artillery sword don't show serial numbers on the blade, and the practice is LOVED by Chinese makers.

5. The kiku (Chrysanthemum) is 14 petal. My understanding is that Japanese kiku were 16.

7. The craftsmanship of the entire thing - how well everything fits, the details of the sakura, and metalwork, even the kissaki - are way better than any Chinese piece of fakery I've ever seen.

{insert emoji of through hands in the air}

It's quite a puzzle. One possibility - a late '40s skilled craftsman souvenir. It would explain the mix of army/navy/civil fittings, just like the Toyokawa souvenir sword.

Even the ashi seem made in miniature for this piece. The detail is way better than Chinese work, and it's thinner and smaller than a standard sized navy ashi. Look how thick the standard size is:

Thanks for the tip on the petal count as well as the additional photos Bruce.

Stephen · October 24, 2021

Oh no no no theses Island daggers made by Japanese troops stuck in the hills after the war I'm sure I'm so sure

PNSSHOGUN · October 24, 2021

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Oh no no no theses Island daggers made by Japanese troops stuck in the hills after the war I'm sure I'm so sure

The hills of Manchuria, those good ol' boys held out until the 2000's making these......

Bruce Pennington · December 7, 2021

I seem to remember another thread than this one with similar "knives" to what I'm posting, but as usual with my non-excellent search skills, this is the only one I could find.

Thoughts?

Found on Warrelics HERE