UNUSUAL DAGGER - MADE IN Japan FOR CHINA?

[Bazza]

Gentle Ffolke,

 

I was at my antique arms collectors meeting one night when I espied an unusual dagger that looked like an extraordinarily small Shingunto, but wasn't.  The blade is a puzzle with a seemingly Japanese arsenal mark and a serial number, but otherwise shows no attributes of a finely formed and polished Nihonto blade.  The 'fuchi' decoration looks intended to appeal to Chinese tastes??  I have no idea what it is and show it for interest.

 

Bestests,

BaZZa.

      

 

        

 

[16k]

No clue what this is, but that is an interesting item indeed.

[vajo]

Looks like a former Bajonett which was made as a hunting knife.

Looks very cool and i think it is authentic.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hmmm, sorry Bazz looks like a fine example of chinese crap to me!

[ROKUJURO]

Interesting weapon, but not a dagger (= two cutting edges). It tries to look like an 'official' war related Japanese item, but could be a (fairly well-made) put-together.

[Brian]

Chinese fantasy piece? I think the guys in the Chinese fake factories maybe get bored during lunchtime and put together weird stuff

[Bruce Pennington]

Quite an amazing piece, whether original or post-war; whether Chinese or Bubba. Truly an exellent piece of work.

 

Thoughts:

1. It reminds me of Dawson's pages on Foot Soldier/Artillery SWord (pic attached). He had examples of wild custom jobs.

2. The mix of navy ashi and army Rinji-seishiki sayajiri/kabutogane + custom fuchi/koiguchi screams "Post-war". I can't see even a WWII custom shop mixing army & navy parts.

3. The Seki trademark, according to Ohmura, was created after 1940, yet the artillery sword was a late-1800's manufacture. And examples of the stamp observed are all post-1942.

4. Dawson's examples of the artillery sword don't show serial numbers on the blade, and the practice is LOVED by Chinese makers.

5. The kiku (Chrysanthemum) is 14 petal. My understanding is that Japanese kiku were 16.

7. The craftsmanship of the entire thing - how well everything fits, the details of the sakura, and metalwork, even the kissaki - are way better than any Chinese piece of fakery I've ever seen.

 

{insert emoji of through hands in the air}

 

It's quite a puzzle. One possibility - a late '40s skilled craftsman souvenir. It would explain the mix of army/navy/civil fittings, just like the Toyokawa souvenir sword.

 

Even the ashi seem made in miniature for this piece. The detail is way better than Chinese work, and it's thinner and smaller than a standard sized navy ashi. Look how thick the standard size is:

[MarcoUdin]

Hmmm the cannonball stamp is a Nagoya arsenal marking, where they produced many guns and bayonets, But yet to see something of that nature. Plus I don't recall Nagoya numbering their smaller blades so if it were real where are the others.

 

Just my novice opinion though.

[Brian]

Don't overthink it. It's just a fake. Just look at the wrap.

[vajo]

If it is fake i would buy it as camping/ hunting knife. Looks cool. Ito can be made new 

[16k]

Strangely enough, I’m in the "must be real" camp.  Too nice for a fake.

[MarcoUdin]

Maybe of interest?

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23394-trying-to-identify-a-sword/

[16k]

Attaboy, Marco, great sleuth skills!

[Dave R]

 This and the tagged post have me thinking, did the IJA or IJN at any time issue a brush knife, fascine knife or machete?

[MarcoUdin]

I try my best ????

[BANGBANGSAN]

It looks like a Chinese made up piece to me. 

[Jareth]

I'm actually shocked that this fantasy repro is getting such in depth discussion! It's so blatantly fake!

[Jareth]

There wasn't any official, issued machete that I'm aware of. The Japanese captured large quantities of Dutch swords & bayonets. Swords were extensively reworked into machetes & bayonets were also modified to fit Japanese rifles. Here's a photo of a Dutch Klewang machete in my collection

[vajo]

In my opinion someone made from a bayonet a hunting knife. Why not?

What kind of fake should it be?

Why should any chinese forge a camping bowie knife and make a nagoya arsenal stamp and numbers on it? Makes no sense. Its allways a bowie camping hunting knife ????

[Jareth]

If it was once a bayonet the Arsenal mark is in wrong position. Just an ignorant Chinese faker using the Nagoya symbol

[Shamsy]

Maybe just weird trench art from an old bayonet, maybe some Chinese created oddity, who knows. Thanks for sharing, Bazza. I enjoy seeing unusual things like this, irrespective of origin or age.

[vajo]

Btw the ito binding looks odd but it is correct made. Not that chinese one way binding.

Maybe island made dagger from the occupation zone?

[lonely panet]

Iv been reading some posts, and I'm surprised it's got this far.

 

 

150% modern crap, there are so many points to start on.

 

Firstly the style and shape is Not Japanese military at all,

Sukura is roughly s**t, is it a cherry or a plum. That aside a 5 petal sukura was used by police but this was not.

 

The large serial number? Would imply that it's army issued and owned, not like a shin gunto that was owned.

It's a over looked detail from fakers who think type 25, 32 and 95s etc are like kyu, Kai and shin gunto are the same.

 

 

It's offensively modern and fake,

 

Sorry bazza if was overly rude

[vajo]

Hamfish one question. If i would make a fake i would try to copy something. But what is copied with that piece? I didn't really understand it. What Japanese military piece is faked? 

 

Its a total scratch build knife. With some relations to Japanese army pieces (Stamp, Number and maybe the koshirae). But overall it is obvious not a copy of something that was produced. 

In my eyes it is a knife in Japanese army style (its not important were it was made). Nothing wrong with it. And with some care it will look nice and functional.

[Dave R]

 If you never look at or discuss the unusual or different, you are severely limiting yourself. There have been some surprises on this site and on others. Just because it does not conform does not mean it's wrong. I have no idea as to the origin of this piece, but if another one turns up we will know that it is probably a production run rather than a one off.

 

 It's not as if it costs us money!

[Bazza]

Iv been reading some posts, and I'm surprised it's got this far..

 

It's offensively modern and fake,

 

Sorry bazza if was overly rude

Hamish mate, I'm not in the slightest offended, not the slightest.  We are all about learning here and for me even severe criticism doesn't put my nose out of joint.  Frankly, I like your frank style of "putting it".

 

BaZZa

XXXX

[Bazza]

... . I have no idea as to the origin of this piece, but if another one turns up we will know that it is probably a production run rather than a one off.

Dave, there is second, identical piece that has turned up.  Perhaps it slipped past you, but Marco in Post #12 drew our attention to it.  Good find Marco.  So it would seem to be part of a production run of some sort, somewhere:

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23394-trying-to-identify-a-sword/

 

Chris S in Post #22 also drew attention to the correct style of Japanese hilt binding.

 

BaZZa.

 

[Brian]

I suspect the other one is the same one. The Chinese have no issue with one off junk.
This is junk. Fake, Chinese junk. The metal is clearly junk, the fittings are probably an alloy. The stamps are not just hammered stamps, but machine hydraulic pressed (to death)
The blade sucks. The hi is machined on. Ito is cotton junk. Shape is crap. Ito triangles were done by a drunk one armed blind guy.
But I'm happy for opinions, and everyone is entitled to them...so as you were.

[vajo]

Dave, there is second, identical piece that has turned up.  Perhaps it slipped past you, but Marco in Post #12 drew our attention to it.  Good find Marco.  So it would seem to be part of a production run of some sort, somewhere:

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23394-trying-to-identify-a-sword/

 

Chris S in Post #22 also drew attention to the correct style of Japanese hilt binding.

 

BaZZa.

 

Wow Bazza, cool. I cant remember on that. But it looks absolut similar made.

 

No. here: 015728

On the link: 187530

 

Another idea. Japanese Tourist piece?

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, not a one-off. Nagoya stamps placed differently and numbers on the old post are cutting edge up, like Nagoya numbers should be, but this one is cutting edge down. Same mix of navy and Rinji parts.

 

I still like my post-war souvenir shop idea.