Excellent Tsuba

[TheGermanBastard]

Unfortunately not mine. I suppose Umetada? A lovely piece imho. There were some excellent Tsuba in this auction:

 

https://www.invaluable.com/catalog/2cpste30v6

 

Congratulations to whoever may be the new owner of some of those!

[Ganko]

Interesting, Never seen that before, looks like guri-bori sandwich slices attached. I like it, there is always something different that someone has tried. The more difficult the less often they are seen, like cranes legs skin on a saya.

[Geraint]

Dear Tom.

 

Have a look here, http://jameelcentre.ashmolean.org/collection/7/10237/10400  They are not common and usually command quite high prices.  Luis, there were indeed some nice tsuba, be interesting to find out what they went for.

 

All the best.

[TheGermanBastard]

Yes, Guri Bori was my first reaction but I do think that it is rather Umetada.

[Gunome]

For me it is guri bori.

What elements lead you to Umedata School ?

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Sebastien, the design is Guri Bori. But it is not carved as we usually see it on Guri Bori - but again I am no expert and given how rare Guri Bori is per se, there is not that mich reference I have seen. The openings for the Kozuka being perfectly symetrical and their design along with the plate rather let me to Umetada going by the feeling of reference work I have seen. However I may be plain wrong. No matter what I think this is a very good Tsuba and I would have been very happy to be its new keeper. It will need some TLC but this is really good stuff in my oppinion.

[TheGermanBastard]

  On 5/17/2020 at 6:21 PM, Geraint said:

Dear Tom.

 

Have a look here, http://jameelcentre.ashmolean.org/collection/7/10237/10400  They are not common and usually command quite high prices.  Luis, there were indeed some nice tsuba, be interesting to find out what they went for.

 

All the best.

 

Hello Geraint,

 

maybe I am just having a splendid taste, but the ones I thought to be good went for high prices. Well, I can not really say if the prices were high. There were some very nice pieces which feel were well worth what the hammer went down at - while the added premium is just a pain in the ass.

 

I liked the monkey general, Namban with flute and the above one the most.

 

My impression was that the above average but not excellent stuff went at very reasonable prices. For example that Tsuba displaying a cock fight was much bang for the buck. Pretty nice work on it.

 

I always wonder if the floor bidders are dealers, collectors or just bored guys with deep pockets.

[TheGermanBastard]

This one got the highest bidding and fetched over 5k including premium ... https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/sentoku-hand-guard-signed-shumei-hogen-51-c-5144ba39bd

[Gunome]

For me it is typical guri bori because of the technic : the plate with several layer of copper/shakudo then carved with a kind of triple "S" that is quite typic also from Guri bori school.

[jlawson]

Very flashy items for the most part that were made for Meiji export and unfortunately lots of Gimei. I bought a few that appeared to be correct. 

[Surfson]

Luis, in future, let us know before the auction!

[TheGermanBastard]

  On 5/17/2020 at 8:07 PM, Surfson said:

Luis, in future, let us know before the auction!

Bob, with all due respect! This is getting old! I had my fair share of Soshufly outbidding me Well, I thought you would have been aware of it ... and hey you allready got that Nobukuni with amazing mounts some years ago

[terminus]

  On 5/17/2020 at 6:48 PM, NihontoCollector said:

This one got the highest bidding and fetched over 5k including premium ... https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/sentoku-hand-guard-signed-shumei-hogen-51-c-5144ba39bd

I was going to bid on this, but wasn’t sure about the mei. Haruaki Hogen is a big name, and while I really like the theme the teapot was rather stale and boring for a Hogen piece. Here’s an example of another tsuba signed Haruaki Hogen that sold for 11k and I believe it’s carvings are done far better.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23269/lot/327/

 

I have noticed tsuba prices have held fairly well at recent auctions (and historically). 

This Ishiguro Teruaki signed tsuba sold for 19K(before premium)euro 5 months ago: https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/auctions/lot/id/33597

This Nakagawa Issho signed tsuba sold for 5K(before premium)euro this weekend: https://wl.lot-tissimo.com/de/tsubaeisen-Japan-spaete-meiji-periode-schwertstichblatt-in-rechteckiger-form-m/_/i/16598550/p/1/

 

I'm 100% sure the tsuba op posted is a guri bori design, but nothing about it tells me umetada.

[Surfson]

Just kidding Luis.  Though I don't know who Soshufly is, but it's not me, so maybe I have been falsely accused of outbidding you!  

[Surfson]

Posted earlier, but the method is very clear.  The interesting feature of the tsuba that Luis posted is that there appears to be a layer in the middle of each arabesque that must be a different metal and has corroded in each one of the motifs.  

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Bob, I thought that Soshufly used to be your eBay handle? You sure outbid me anyways

 

I remeber your fine Guri Bori Daisho Koshiae. Excellent piece, I have only encountered Guri Bori this way with carvig that was inlaid with the softmetal but never yet in a raised 3d pattern as in the above Tsuba?

[Tanto54]

Just a fun fact about the tsuba that Luis posted (the high priced one - reposted below).  Did you see that the Tanuki is resting the hot tea kettle, plate and leg on his nut sack?  Tanuki have various powers in Japanese myth including the ability to take human (or other) form, drum on their bellies to attract humans, and grow their nut sacks to enormous sizes and use them (their nut sacks) to kill humans by crushing them.  On tosogu, you will often see tanuki drumming on their bellies, in the process of changing back from a tea kettle form, or rarely with a huge nut sack like this tsuba.

 

[Surfson]

You say that as if there is something wrong, George.  How do you hold your teapot?!

[terminus]

  On 5/18/2020 at 12:25 AM, Tanto54 said:

Just a fun fact about the tsuba that Luis posted (the high priced one - reposted below).  Did you see that the Tanuki is resting the hot tea kettle, plate and leg on his nut sack?  Tanuki have various powers in Japanese myth including the ability to take human (or other) form, drum on their bellies to attract humans, and grow their nut sacks to enormous sizes and use them (their nut sacks) to kill humans by crushing them.  On tosogu, you will often see tanuki drumming on their bellies, in the process of changing back from a tea kettle form, or rarely with a huge nut sack like this tsuba.

 

Tanuki.jpg

I'm glad you pointed it out and not me. I was wondering for the longest time if that was his actually his testicles or some lily pad lol. 

[Spartancrest]

I saw the 'guribori' up for auction but it looked to me to be applied rather than cut into the base plate, There were no side views in the original photos - optical illusion? I thought guribori was a carved technique not added. Does the white line show reflected light or a buildup of dirt against the applied layers? And is that a fukurin as well?

[vajo]

Ok guys - i would not pay 5k for this tsuba. It dont really makes me happy to look at it. I found it something boring 

[Geraint]

Dear All.

 

Just a couple of observations.  First, the tsuba in the original post is classic guri bori, carving down into the plate.  If you are seeing this as raised then you are subject to an optical illusion.  

Second, we have seen before on NMB that confusion exists between technique and school in attribution, there is no reason why an Umetada artist should not have made this tsuba using guri bori technique.

I am not saying that this is Umetada, just anxious that we understand guri bori as a technique, not a school.

 

All the best.

[TheGermanBastard]

  On 5/18/2020 at 8:11 AM, Geraint said:

Dear All.

 

Just a couple of observations.  First, the tsuba in the original post is classic guri bori, carving down into the plate.  If you are seeing this as raised then you are subject to an optical illusion.  

Second, we have seen before on NMB that confusion exists between technique and school in attribution, there is no reason why an Umetada artist should not have made this tsuba using guri bori technique.

I am not saying that this is Umetada, just anxious that we understand guri bori as a technique, not a school.

 

All the best

 

You have some points there.

 

But do you really think it is carved into the plate? I looked again and to me it seemed like a raised design on the surface?

[TheGermanBastard]

What is your oppinion on this Hirata school Tsuba? I am not in the position to make a judgment. Export work or the real deal?

[vajo]

Hi Luis

for my eyes a beautiful tsuba and a real one.

[PietroParis]

  On 5/18/2020 at 4:22 AM, terminus said:

I'm glad you pointed it out and not me. I was wondering for the longest time if that was his actually his testicles or some lily pad lol. 

 

 

And there's more where this came from...

[Ken-Hawaii]

I saw that & liked it, too. I agree with Chris that it's real.

[Geraint]

Dear All.

 

In regard to the guri bori tsuba that started this thread, yes I do think it is classic guri bori, carved into the plate, though when I showed my wife the picture she instantly responded with, " Oh, it's repousse."  Look at the lower left quadrant and note the highlights.

 

With regard to the shippo tsuba, which I like and would love to own, if I had bought it I would not think that I had a Hirata tsuba. Note the copper cloisennes. I was reading an old text the other day and came across this, "..Sir Arthur Church, who formed a notable collection,had said that whilst on a trip to the London Docks he had seen a packing case fall from its sling and break open.  It was full of iron discs, dirty and many rusty, and he saw a labourer piling up the lose ones into a bucket.  He had a closer look at them, being mildly interested, and bought a quantity."  (Newman and Ryerson 1964)  Now at this point we should pause out of respect for all the tsuba collectors who are having emotional moments at the prospect of a crate full of rusty old tsuba, some of which were good enough to find there way into the Church collection.

 

Enormous quantities of tsuba were making their way to the West at the end of the 19th and early 20th centuries.  Many were bundled up and sold in bunches on strings.  If any of you read the Discworld books by Terry Pratchett then you need to imagine a Japanese version of Cut me own throat Dibbler the eponymous street trader, anything for  a fast buck.  "Iron tsuba?  Nahh, selling them by weight but your enamelled stuff, now that's a different story.  Stick a few flowers on that one and we'll call it a Donin."  I regret to say that most auction houses are run by distant cousins of Mr Dibbler and a Hirata label still sells.

 

I fear that this is another case of technique driving classification; it has cloisonne it must be Hirata.  However it does not have the hall marks of a tsuba by Hirata Donin which are explained here, http://www.jameelcentre.ashmolean.org/collection/7/10237/10398  

 

Well I am just off to duck behind a substantial wall for an hour or two while you guys fight it out.

 

All the best.

[vajo]

No Hirata - Geraint made it. Thanks.

But i like it. For me it looks nice.

[Tanto54]

Regardless of which school made it, the shippo (cloisonné) is well done....  The tsuba needs some TLC, but I think that it would be very nice if it were cleaned up.